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 Post subject: Batteries
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:25 pm 
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Location: Leesburg, VA / Chesapeake Beach, MD
So I have a dumb question and I know there are people on here that are knowledgeable about all things Parker and 12-volt systems. I currently have two cranking batteries on my boat (21 Parker SE) model 24M3. First question I have seen 24M3 - 24M5 and 24M7 - is there an actual difference or just manufacturer's labeling. Second - should I have any concerns going from a 24M3 to a larger 27 series battery. Finally, why the two cranking batteries? It came that way and is an older boat. Reason I ask is both batteries crapped out and I replaced one and am running everything off that battery without issue. The second battery just had red/black to it and back to the battery switch. Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:04 am 
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Well your labeling 24M3 must be a manufacturs labeling....It's not common and I've never heard of it.

Here's the standard...... Gp24 Cranking [Starting].....Gp24 DC [Deep Cycle].....Gp24Dp [Dual Purpose]

Going to a Gp27 is no problem.....But you will need to change the battery tray, as the footprint is larger on the 27

A Gp29 will fit in a Gp27 tray...It is taller than a Gp27. A Gp 27 has more reserve capacity the a Gp24

More Reserve Capacity is a good thing.

I Never install a Dual purpose Battery.... It's supposed to do everything....But it does Not do it as well as a dedicated battery made for it's purpose. Lot's of dealers will install them. Why? Cause they don't care and it works.

Single engine w/ 2 batteries and a Perko 1,2,All,OFF is the standard. It Works..... But it's Not the best setup.

Even if you put a Gp27 DC & a Gp24 Starting battery But have that Perkp switch ....You Do NOT have a dedicated House battery.

You say....But wait....Yes I do....It's the Gp27 Deep Cycle.

As to your batteries You do....BUT electricaly You do Not!

So You start the day with full charged batteries. Move the Perko to Batt 1....[We'll Call Batt 1 the Gp24 and batt2 the Gp27]

So what you have is everything running off Batt 1....This is starting your motor, running your electronic's and pumps and lights.

Batt 2....The Gp27DC is just sitting there doing nothing and it's not being charged.

So now you move to Position2....Thats your Gp27DC [House battery]......But it's NOT a House battery,as it must be the Start battery also when you went to position 2.

It now does the starting of your motor, running your electronic's and pumps and lights.

and Now Batt1 is just sitting there ..doing nothing and not getting a Charge.

And then you say.....Yea....But I run mine in ALL.

Well now you have both batteries combined...IE: wired in Parallel to do every thing on the boat. Yep it works and Thousands of people are doing this every day.

And here is why it's bad.....There are 2 batteries on your boat so that you have redundantsie. Normally if you wire batteries in Parallel...You want them the same age and the same size. This keeps the balance between them.

Now But.....If 1 of the batteries develops a bad cell...It's a Bad battery, but in Parallel , The Good battery will try to make the Bad battery keep up.

Now you have 2 BAD batteries and your dead in the water.


Spiking electronics is a Common thing with a Perko switch. What does that mean?

Your electronic's are ON.......You hit the key to Start the Motor. The mad rush of amps to the Starter motor causes the Voltage to drop and kick the electronics OFF...This is know as Spiking the electronic's..it's BAD for them!

So how do we fix all that. Enter the BEP Cluster switch. I just completed the 30th boat I have installed them on...This is a combo of single motor 2 batteries and 2 motors with 3 batteries.

Single motor

Image


Twin Motors

Image



BEP Cluster Switch.

You start your day by turning the Start switch and the House switch to ON.
At the end of the day you turn them both OFF.

It doesn't get any simpler than that. You don't have to remember to turn from Batt 1 when going out and switch to Batt 2 on the way back in. Just something else that you have to remember.

OK so what goes on with it is done all automatically thru the VSR [Voltage Sensitive Relay]

The Relay is in a closed position. As soon as you hit the key to crank the motor the relay opens, due to sensing a large surge of current.

Ok the motor is cranked and running now. The relay is still open. The Alt is charging the Start battery until it reaches a set voltage and charge.

Then the relay closes and is back charging Both the Start & House Battery.

Now another feature that happened when you hit the key is your electronics were ON and wired from the House battery. This will stop any spiking of the Electronics. They don't like to be spiked!

OK...Now your out sitting on the beach. The motor is OFF, but you have the Radio playing for hours. The Relay senses the drop and opens the relay again. The radio is still playing, but the relay just disconnected the Start battery out of the circuit so that it stays at Full charge to start the motor.

When you get ready to leave the beach and crank the motor the alt will charge the Start battery first and when it's back up, the relay will close and charge the House battery.

There is one more switch on the Cluster. It is the Combine switch. Think of that as Jumper Cables without having to dig them out and hook them up. This switch would normally be in the OFF position, until you need a boost on the start battery. Then turn it to ON. After the motor is running turn it back OFF.

Everything is all Automatic. No thinking about it. Your batteries will have a much better charge in them.

The unit pictured above is just slightly larger than a Perko switch. So it doesn't take up much room and takes a LOT less room than the Blue Seas version. It looks cleaner too, due to the cables that are needed on the Blue Seas version.

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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:18 am 
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Location: Beaufort, SC
Wart I really like the idea behind the BEP cluster switch and the way you explain how it automatically isolates the two batteries. I have been running my existing 2 battery single engine Guest switch on both so in effect I have just one big battery with no backup.
If I ordered the BEP 2 battery single engine square cluster switch how difficult would it be to self install and what other parts would be needed for the installation? I am moderately mechanically inclined and somewhat electrically challenged but good at following directions. I presume that I should disconnect the terminals to the batteries before the installation. Any and all advice and instruction will be most appreciated!
Thanks,
Mike

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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:14 am 
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Well You need a surface mount Circuit Breaker 50amp
Your going to need battery cable...Cable ends...A battery end Crimp tool.

Some 10ga wire and the right size ends 3/8 & 1/4in This is to replace factory wiring they installed with stupid automotive end...:(

You will have to look..and look again at which end of the little Red wire to cut...The cut off end then gets a Red Crimp shrink w/3/8in eye.
That in turn goes on the terminal that the Pos start cable goes on.

This is probably all "Greek" as it would be easier if you had one in front of you to follow along.

With me buying all the parts and labor it comes close to $1000 when I do one.

Tinned ends and diaelectric grease are a must to protect everything.

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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:35 am 
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Wart when you say "This is probably all "Greek" as it would be easier if you had one in front of you to follow along", I presume that there are wiring instructions included with the BEP Cluster Switch?
Why is the 50amp Circuit Breaker needed and is its placement included in the instructions?
I realize that you are a professional and perfectionist but could I simplify my installation by using most of the existing factory wiring and ends and still improve my situation?
Thanks,
Mike

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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:31 pm 
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The instructions are there...They are small in size.. Look VERY closely before you cut that Red wire...You have 1 shot at it. Cut the wrong side and you will need a new Relay. The CB goes inline after the cable comes out of the House switch. The cable then goes on to the Pos terminal of the Fuse panel. That CB protects that cable.

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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:34 pm 
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X2 on that BEP Wart is suggesting. It’s a very cool addition to battery management Wart passed on to me. As far as the wire and new connectors and the breaker? I may have misunderstood the current set up. I would think there is already a breaker for the positive going to the console and the existing wires at the existing battery switch should all just transfer to the new BEP? Here is a pic of mine from my project in the spring. You can see the breaker to the left of the BEP switch that is the positive that runs to the positive bus bar at my helm. The switch itself is an easy job providing that you don’t have to redo a bunch of wiring and connectors?


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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:29 am 
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This is all great information. Wart, your write-up does a great job of explaining basic battery setup for us "less than electrical geniuses (me)".

This would be a great STICKY at the top - "Battery setup for Dummies Manual" :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:42 am 
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Excellent explanation Warthog. Thank you. I've often wondered about the dedicated start & house batteries as I have the standard 1-2-both-off switch but felt dumb asking. Now I feel a little less dumb.


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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:04 am 
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MadGar wrote:
This would be a great STICKY at the top - "Battery setup for Dummies Manual" :shock:


Your wish... has been granted. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:59 pm 
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shawnee83 wrote:
X2 on that BEP Wart is suggesting. It’s a very cool addition to battery management Wart passed on to me. As far as the wire and new connectors and the breaker? I may have misunderstood the current set up. I would think there is already a breaker for the positive going to the console and the existing wires at the existing battery switch should all just transfer to the new BEP? Here is a pic of mine from my project in the spring. You can see the breaker to the left of the BEP switch that is the positive that runs to the positive bus bar at my helm. The switch itself is an easy job providing that you don’t have to redo a bunch of wiring and connectors?


Shawnee that is exactly what I wanted to hear as I will attempt the job if I can use my existing wiring and connectors since my boat is only 2 years old and the wiring and connectors are like new. Did you use your existing wiring and connectors in your conversion as it looks like a really clean set up? I am just trying to keep the job as simple and clean as possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:17 pm 
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When I replaced my Grp 24 Optima AGM's with Grp 27 Lifeline AGM's in the spring of 2012, I reconfigured much of my wiring, but kept my OEM Perko 1-2-Both-Off switch.
While I know Bobbys BEP cluster was a better option, the way I used my boat (inshore Chesapeake Bay) showed the Perko switch to be adequate.

I always ran my boat in 'Both' because my starting power needs were minimal (Yamaha OX66), electronics were basic (chartplotter, bottom machine, VHF, and 2 handhelds) and didn't stress the system.
No stereo either. So running on, and charging both batteries whenever the motor was running worked for me.

We did a lot of trolling or drift fishing (with the motor off), so my electrical needs were covered by these two massive AGM's and the way I used the boat.
For anyone with greater needs than I had, the BEP cluster is the way to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:24 pm 
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Banjo wrote:
shawnee83 wrote:
X2 on that BEP Wart is suggesting. It’s a very cool addition to battery management Wart passed on to me. As far as the wire and new connectors and the breaker? I may have misunderstood the current set up. I would think there is already a breaker for the positive going to the console and the existing wires at the existing battery switch should all just transfer to the new BEP? Here is a pic of mine from my project in the spring. You can see the breaker to the left of the BEP switch that is the positive that runs to the positive bus bar at my helm. The switch itself is an easy job providing that you don’t have to redo a bunch of wiring and connectors?


Shawnee that is exactly what I wanted to hear as I will attempt the job if I can use my existing wiring and connectors since my boat is only 2 years old and the wiring and connectors are like new. Did you use your existing wiring and connectors in your conversion as it looks like a really clean set up? I am just trying to keep the job as simple and clean as possible.



Banjo, yes I used mostly my original cables. I changed out one of mine because I relocated my house battery as part of my project. Otherwise, it’s an easy job. I relocated my house breaker to the left side of the switch as it was over in the right corner prior. I moved where my switch was mounted by 3 or 4” for that matter as well. All you do is connect the pos from the engine to the start switch then the pos from your start battery to the start switch. Next you connect the pos from your house battery to the house switch then connect the pos from the house breaker to the house switch. That’s it, easy. See attached diagram. My favorite part about this battery switch is the automatic battery management it brings to the table. The key here is that both batteries will stay charged and as Wart stated, it eliminates the issues associated with leaving a standard switch on both, such as a bad cell in one battery dragging down the other. Also, when hanging out without the engine running it isolates your start battery so it can’t be drawn down. It’s a great piece of electronics for sure. Good luck!!
Part number etc...
http://www.bepmarine.com/en/716-sq-140a-dvsr
In addition, if you need to change any of your cables you can order them from these guys. They also can make the cables for you down to the foot and inch with whatever ends you require if you don’t want to or have the required tools. Make sure you request heat shrink on all of your connectors.
https://gregsmarinewiresupply.com/index ... ommon/home


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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:00 am 
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On that drawing.....Forget the CB/ Fuse Between C and the House battery.

I just did a Little research and the drawing above is correct...But it's a old drawing and the "Digital Relay" has 2 more small wires.
Those wire are not shown in the above drawing.

The older Relays.....Pre Digital never turned the Relay Off.... So they would draw Milliamps all the time, which was not good.

With the digital it has the Red wire I spoke of....Both ends are embedded in the Jell on the back of the Relay. One end gets cut....It will show you in the instructions that comes with it....But I can't find those instructions online.

The loose end then gets connected to Terminal "B" . That way at the end of the day and you turn the Start Switch OFF...It kills power and deenergizes the Relay.

The other wire I spoke of is Black....That is the Relay's Ground and must be connected to the Ground Buss or terminal.

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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:03 pm 
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Wart - thank you for the very informative and in depth reply. I really appreciate the time you took to respond. I am noticing an amp spike running off one battery with all electronics on and starting the motor. I did not have this issue when I ran two in tandem off the perko switch set at all. I will upgrade to the 27 series. I also fish the Chesapeake bay and other than starting an old 150 hpdi and running two Lowrance units I don't have any other battery draw. I'm not sure the BEP investment would be worth it in my application.


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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:44 pm 
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Everybody doing itImage

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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:09 am 
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Continuing On...... There is another Product that does this. It's Blue Seas -Add a Battery.

I used it one time, before I started using the BEP Clusters. It works......But it's messy to me.

There is a LOT more cabling to run everywhere and Large gauga cables can only make so small of a radius.

So what happens is you end up with a much bigger footprint.

The BEP cluster that I showed above for a single motor is barely larger than a Perko Switch. The Blue Seas model will be at Least 3 times that big.

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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:44 am 
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Regulate It wrote:
So I have a dumb question and I know there are people on here that are knowledgeable about all things Parker and 12-volt systems. I currently have two cranking batteries on my boat (21 Parker SE) model 24M3. First question I have seen 24M3 - 24M5 and 24M7 - is there an actual difference or just manufacturer's labeling. Second - should I have any concerns going from a 24M3 to a larger 27 series battery. Finally, why the two cranking batteries? It came that way and is an older boat. Reason I ask is both batteries crapped out and I replaced one and am running everything off that battery without issue. The second battery just had red/black to it and back to the battery switch. Thanks


Yamaha 4s (250 and up I know for sure) have an unused auxiliary charging lead coming off the alternator. Some have a capped plug where you will need to purchase (or make) the lead and plug into the alternator and pull the wires thru the transom to the batt(s) but the newer engines such as the 300s that came on my 2016 28, Parker has already run the leads through the transom and attached them to each of the two cranking batteries. For an isolated house battery it is as simple as taking the auxiliary charging lead off one of the cranking batteries and attaching it to a stand alone house battery run to a simple on/off Perko (or similar) via a breaker. Run all your electronics off the house battery. Cranking batt(s) start the engine(s) and that is it. ALL batts charge anytime the engines are running.

The cranking batt(s) charge off the main wire coming off the engine. The aux charging leads are not needed to charge cranking batt(s) and can be used to charge other things any time the engine is running.

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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:55 pm 
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wart why do you say to shut the batt.off when done using boat ? i have the switch and it works great going to need new house batts . this year the old ones ar 7 yrs old

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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:15 am 
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Always shut your switches off....It helps prevent corrosion problems.

The only thing that is Hot when all the switches are OFF is the feeds to the float switches to operate the bilge pumps.

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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:18 am 
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warthog5 wrote:
Always shut your switches off....It helps prevent corrosion problems.

The only thing that is Hot when all the switches are OFF is the feeds to the float switches to operate the bilge pumps.



^^^^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^^^^

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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:33 am 
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warthog5 wrote:
The only thing that is Hot when all the switches are OFF is the feeds to the float switches to operate the bilge pumps.


One other thing (that is controversial with some folks).
My bilge pumps are un-fused.

My reasoning is that I don't want anything in between my batteries and my pumps that can fail without me knowing it.
My 'float switches' are actually electronic 'Water Witch 101's' that don't have any moving parts.

https://waterwitchinc.com/product/model ... ge-switch/

A failed float switch or a burnt fuse can cost you your boat because you will never know either one has failed until it is too late.


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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:26 pm 
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What happens to the factory selector switches after you install the BEP cluster. I have a 2017 2510 with twin 150's and am fearful to run both batteries and get stranded. I drift, or anchor with 2 livewells running, radio, and 16" simrad / AP44 autopilot running. After a few hours battery 1 is toast. After the boat sits for a week my carbon monoxide alarm goes off indicating low battery(when both selector switches are off) so I also think i have a bad battery or a draw on battery 1. Its a new boat and I haven't investigated it myself. Its going back to the dealer soon, so maybe this wont be a problem in the future. For now i keep it on a trickle charger on the trailer. I was thinking of installing a 3rd battery and the blue seas ACR to create more of a house battery type of situation. How would the BEP cluster be better or different than the blue seas ACR?

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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:30 pm 
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Davidwolfe2 wrote:
What happens to the factory selector switches after you install the BEP cluster. I have a 2017 2510 with twin 150's and am fearful to run both batteries and get stranded. I drift, or anchor with 2 livewells running, radio, and 16" simrad / AP44 autopilot running. After a few hours battery 1 is toast. After the boat sits for a week my carbon monoxide alarm goes off indicating low battery(when both selector switches are off) so I also think i have a bad battery or a draw on battery 1. Its a new boat and I haven't investigated it myself. Its going back to the dealer soon, so maybe this wont be a problem in the future. For now i keep it on a trickle charger on the trailer. I was thinking of installing a 3rd battery and the blue seas ACR to create more of a house battery type of situation. How would the BEP cluster be better or different than the blue seas ACR?
Hi Why not first use both batteries (type, size and capacity not stated) and install a battery voltage meter or state of charge like Victron 600 series or Link Lite before adding another battery


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 Post subject: Re: Batteries
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Brent wrote:
Davidwolfe2 wrote:
What happens to the factory selector switches after you install the BEP cluster. I have a 2017 2510 with twin 150's and am fearful to run both batteries and get stranded. I drift, or anchor with 2 livewells running, radio, and 16" simrad / AP44 autopilot running. After a few hours battery 1 is toast. After the boat sits for a week my carbon monoxide alarm goes off indicating low battery(when both selector switches are off) so I also think i have a bad battery or a draw on battery 1. Its a new boat and I haven't investigated it myself. Its going back to the dealer soon, so maybe this wont be a problem in the future. For now i keep it on a trickle charger on the trailer. I was thinking of installing a 3rd battery and the blue seas ACR to create more of a house battery type of situation. How would the BEP cluster be better or different than the blue seas ACR?
Hi Why not first use both batteries (type, size and capacity not stated) and install a battery voltage meter or state of charge like Victron 600 series or Link Lite before adding another battery


B2
If you are running down the house battery, it will shorten the useful life span significantly. Look at Warthog 2530 project. He installed a giant house battery. To see the pics, use Firefox and the Photo bucket extension. It does sound like a second house battery is needed or one large one. A guage to check the battery would help, too to avoid killing it.

B2

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