Took her out for the first time today

Classic Parker

Help Support Classic Parker:

chas650r

Active member
Joined
Jul 7, 2020
Messages
31
Reaction score
8
Location
santa barbara ca
408.......... I went through a similar issue w/ my new to me 2520 xld single f300 w/ seastar steering. my boat was a pristine fresh water only boat that was 300 hrs old when I bought it . I have had a lot of boats and this one tracked the worst of any i have had . every thing looked leak free and the fluid was very clean so I assumed the system needed to be bled. i also had a dead band at center on the helm. I spent wayyy to many hours chasing the issues I thought I had . I have been a auto mechanic by trade so a hydraulic system like this is simple and easy for me to comprehend. first I called seastar to make sure I understood the system, and did get some good info from them but no real eye openers. next per seastar, i emptied the system of all the perfect looking fluid , refilled w/ ATF as a recommended solvent and cycled / bled many times over 4-5 days to clean anything that might be in the system. then using over a gallon of aircraft fluid , flushed and refilled the system . I made a helm filler so I could have a foot of head pressure w/ an open reservoir above for filling and bleeding. very long story short, although the helm was very smooth and quite after all of this the dead band remained.

So it was time to investigate further. the helm itself simplified is a pump and a shuttle valve that directs fluid one way through the 2 hoses. the shuttle valve must see reverse pressure from the wheel being turned the opposite way before it moves (shuttles) and redirects fluid the other way. this valve movement is what you feel and hear just as you change wheel direction if the system is working correctly. there is a given amount of wheel movement that must take place before the shuttle moves and seals before fluid moves . this valve must not stick at all for the system to work at best, hence the reason for the atf flush.

so after all of the above my system was still marginal imo. with no load on the motor on the trailer on in the water at low speed the dead band is there but minimal. the entire system is very smooth , i have even disconnected the ram and checked the motor steer shaft ect , ect. when on the plane at speed the boat wanders more than i am used to and takes more wheel movement to correct than seems normal.

so after another call to seastar and relating all of the above to them they did admit to a given deadband as normal. it makes sense when you understand the function of the shuttle valve in the helm pump. the kicker in my case is that to keep steering effort reasonable on a manual hydraulic system w/ a motor of my size you must have many turns lock to lock at the helm ( close to 5 if i remember correct ). the lower geared the steering is the bigger the deadband ( slop) at the helm. so if I had say 2 turns lock to lock the deadband would just about disappear but would require power steering to move the wheel. this is why a i/o w/ power steering is so nice and precise. In a manual system like mine the helm to cylinder fluid displacement is a compromise.

So again after the 3rd call to seastar and to a aftermarket helm pump rebuilder I have concluded that what i have works correctly just not ideally.

The best diagnostic tool I got out of seastar is the shove test. it tells all and tests many things in simple test. at rest , you go to the back of the motor and just try to turn it against the ram and note the movement you can get at the ram to cylinder, up to 3/8" or so is considered by seastar to be normal. when the system is correct this is a combo of hose pressure flex and what is required to lock the shuttle in one direction or the other. I was initially shocked at the movement in mine and thought it was air but now understand why it moves and why the boat wanders. hose pressure flex can be a real problem w/ longer hoses and is why seastar offers big bucks low flex hose options. when you do this test if thing are free to move as they should you can hear shuttle valve move at the helm. any more than 3/8to 1/2" ram movement indicates 1 or more problems from air to leaks to bad valving, seals ect.

I still dont like mine and would sure like it better , but it my specific system i feel i might be beating a dead horse.

hope this helps. comments any one?
 

Andy

Well-known member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
506
Reaction score
182
Location
Pungo Creek, NC
Look what I found locally. 42 bucks plus tax for a gallon. View attachment 28166
Hey Cheapie, I doubt if it matters, but the the SeaStar manual listed 8+ accepted alternatives to their own SeaS
In spun the wheel probably 500 times combined by now. The rear tube oil is clear but I still get oil on the tube that goes up the bottle. Mainly micro bubble, are both supposed to be clear?

View attachment 28168View attachment 28169
You are making good progress. The tiny bubbles, that are still going up to the container is a good sign; the fact that they are the tiny bubbles... It's like SCUBA diving; air bubbles go up! But do some more. There should be virtually no air bubbles in the fluid. Your photos shows only tiny bubble's, and my guess you will have better steering now, with what I see here, but those tiny bubbles can/will? eventually meet/combine somewhere in the system, to combine into a larger bubble. The steering system pump cannot/will not compress air, so when air bubbles are present in the fluid, they are what creates the 'skip' in the steering.
 

Cheapie408

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2021
Messages
120
Reaction score
19
408.......... I went through a similar issue w/ my new to me 2520 xld single f300 w/ seastar steering. my boat was a pristine fresh water only boat that was 300 hrs old when I bought it . I have had a lot of boats and this one tracked the worst of any i have had . every thing looked leak free and the fluid was very clean so I assumed the system needed to be bled. i also had a dead band at center on the helm. I spent wayyy to many hours chasing the issues I thought I had . I have been a auto mechanic by trade so a hydraulic system like this is simple and easy for me to comprehend. first I called seastar to make sure I understood the system, and did get some good info from them but no real eye openers. next per seastar, i emptied the system of all the perfect looking fluid , refilled w/ ATF as a recommended solvent and cycled / bled many times over 4-5 days to clean anything that might be in the system. then using over a gallon of aircraft fluid , flushed and refilled the system . I made a helm filler so I could have a foot of head pressure w/ an open reservoir above for filling and bleeding. very long story short, although the helm was very smooth and quite after all of this the dead band remained.

So it was time to investigate further. the helm itself simplified is a pump and a shuttle valve that directs fluid one way through the 2 hoses. the shuttle valve must see reverse pressure from the wheel being turned the opposite way before it moves (shuttles) and redirects fluid the other way. this valve movement is what you feel and hear just as you change wheel direction if the system is working correctly. there is a given amount of wheel movement that must take place before the shuttle moves and seals before fluid moves . this valve must not stick at all for the system to work at best, hence the reason for the atf flush.

so after all of the above my system was still marginal imo. with no load on the motor on the trailer on in the water at low speed the dead band is there but minimal. the entire system is very smooth , i have even disconnected the ram and checked the motor steer shaft ect , ect. when on the plane at speed the boat wanders more than i am used to and takes more wheel movement to correct than seems normal.

so after another call to seastar and relating all of the above to them they did admit to a given deadband as normal. it makes sense when you understand the function of the shuttle valve in the helm pump. the kicker in my case is that to keep steering effort reasonable on a manual hydraulic system w/ a motor of my size you must have many turns lock to lock at the helm ( close to 5 if i remember correct ). the lower geared the steering is the bigger the deadband ( slop) at the helm. so if I had say 2 turns lock to lock the deadband would just about disappear but would require power steering to move the wheel. this is why a i/o w/ power steering is so nice and precise. In a manual system like mine the helm to cylinder fluid displacement is a compromise.

So again after the 3rd call to seastar and to a aftermarket helm pump rebuilder I have concluded that what i have works correctly just not ideally.

The best diagnostic tool I got out of seastar is the shove test. it tells all and tests many things in simple test. at rest , you go to the back of the motor and just try to turn it against the ram and note the movement you can get at the ram to cylinder, up to 3/8" or so is considered by seastar to be normal. when the system is correct this is a combo of hose pressure flex and what is required to lock the shuttle in one direction or the other. I was initially shocked at the movement in mine and thought it was air but now understand why it moves and why the boat wanders. hose pressure flex can be a real problem w/ longer hoses and is why seastar offers big bucks low flex hose options. when you do this test if thing are free to move as they should you can hear shuttle valve move at the helm. any more than 3/8to 1/2" ram movement indicates 1 or more problems from air to leaks to bad valving, seals ect.

I still dont like mine and would sure like it better , but it my specific system i feel i might be beating a dead horse.

hope this helps. comments any one?
I just spent the past 2+ hours spinning the wheels with neighbors driving by thinking I must be real itching to get on the water. LMAO There were some air bubbles to start with and now I'm confident that it's free of bubble as all my lines appears to be free flowing with no more bubbles.

I will say the slop has improved but the steering is by no mean precised. The slop would mean I'll be constantly tweaking the steering to track straight. The shove test never showed any issue. almost $80 bucks of oil later, I gain maybe 1/2" improvement on the steering slop.

When i closed the system off, I discovered something. Turning the wheel port beyond what the ram would allow, it would spring back. Turning starboard, it just sits there. I'm parking on the street and it's leaning starboard which might be the issue? But also tells me there could be a leak on the starboard line? Can someone test theirs out? First video shows what I'm talking about. Second video shows the current slop with a video of the motor.


 

Andy

Well-known member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
506
Reaction score
182
Location
Pungo Creek, NC
408.......... I went through a similar issue w/ my new to me 2520 xld single f300 w/ seastar steering. my boat was a pristine fresh water only boat that was 300 hrs old when I bought it . I have had a lot of boats and this one tracked the worst of any i have had . every thing looked leak free and the fluid was very clean so I assumed the system needed to be bled. i also had a dead band at center on the helm. I spent wayyy to many hours chasing the issues I thought I had . I have been a auto mechanic by trade so a hydraulic system like this is simple and easy for me to comprehend. first I called seastar to make sure I understood the system, and did get some good info from them but no real eye openers. next per seastar, i emptied the system of all the perfect looking fluid , refilled w/ ATF as a recommended solvent and cycled / bled many times over 4-5 days to clean anything that might be in the system. then using over a gallon of aircraft fluid , flushed and refilled the system . I made a helm filler so I could have a foot of head pressure w/ an open reservoir above for filling and bleeding. very long story short, although the helm was very smooth and quite after all of this the dead band remained.

So it was time to investigate further. the helm itself simplified is a pump and a shuttle valve that directs fluid one way through the 2 hoses. the shuttle valve must see reverse pressure from the wheel being turned the opposite way before it moves (shuttles) and redirects fluid the other way. this valve movement is what you feel and hear just as you change wheel direction if the system is working correctly. there is a given amount of wheel movement that must take place before the shuttle moves and seals before fluid moves . this valve must not stick at all for the system to work at best, hence the reason for the atf flush.

so after all of the above my system was still marginal imo. with no load on the motor on the trailer on in the water at low speed the dead band is there but minimal. the entire system is very smooth , i have even disconnected the ram and checked the motor steer shaft ect , ect. when on the plane at speed the boat wanders more than i am used to and takes more wheel movement to correct than seems normal.

so after another call to seastar and relating all of the above to them they did admit to a given deadband as normal. it makes sense when you understand the function of the shuttle valve in the helm pump. the kicker in my case is that to keep steering effort reasonable on a manual hydraulic system w/ a motor of my size you must have many turns lock to lock at the helm ( close to 5 if i remember correct ). the lower geared the steering is the bigger the deadband ( slop) at the helm. so if I had say 2 turns lock to lock the deadband would just about disappear but would require power steering to move the wheel. this is why a i/o w/ power steering is so nice and precise. In a manual system like mine the helm to cylinder fluid displacement is a compromise.

So again after the 3rd call to seastar and to a aftermarket helm pump rebuilder I have concluded that what i have works correctly just not ideally.

The best diagnostic tool I got out of seastar is the shove test. it tells all and tests many things in simple test. at rest , you go to the back of the motor and just try to turn it against the ram and note the movement you can get at the ram to cylinder, up to 3/8" or so is considered by seastar to be normal. when the system is correct this is a combo of hose pressure flex and what is required to lock the shuttle in one direction or the other. I was initially shocked at the movement in mine and thought it was air but now understand why it moves and why the boat wanders. hose pressure flex can be a real problem w/ longer hoses and is why seastar offers big bucks low flex hose options. when you do this test if thing are free to move as they should you can hear shuttle valve move at the helm. any more than 3/8to 1/2" ram movement indicates 1 or more problems from air to leaks to bad valving, seals ect.

I still dont like mine and would sure like it better , but it my specific system i feel i might be beating a dead horse.

hope this helps. comments any one?
Thanks from my end.... great explanation!
I don't have the dead-band in my system after I got all the air out, maybe it's just the system...
 

Andy

Well-known member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
506
Reaction score
182
Location
Pungo Creek, NC
I just spent the past 2+ hours spinning the wheels with neighbors driving by thinking I must be real itching to get on the water. LMAO There were some air bubbles to start with and now I'm confident that it's free of bubble as all my lines appears to be free flowing with no more bubbles.

I will say the slop has improved but the steering is by no mean precised. The slop would mean I'll be constantly tweaking the steering to track straight. The shove test never showed any issue. almost $80 bucks of oil later, I gain maybe 1/2" improvement on the steering slop.

When i closed the system off, I discovered something. Turning the wheel port beyond what the ram would allow, it would spring back. Turning starboard, it just sits there. I'm parking on the street and it's leaning starboard which might be the issue? But also tells me there could be a leak on the starboard line? Can someone test theirs out? First video shows what I'm talking about. Second video shows the current slop with a video of the motor.


As requested, I tried the same test on mine. Our boat is at our home on a lift; so quick, easy access. (reminder; for comparison; ours is a 2013 2520 XLD with 300 Yamaha; and is docked nearly perfectly level on the lift; with slight, intentional lean to starboard).
I have zero 'spring-back, from either hard-over port, and/or starboard; as your first video shows...
As for the second video, if my wheel is turned at all, the motor moves/turns also...
 

Andy

Well-known member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
506
Reaction score
182
Location
Pungo Creek, NC
408.......... I went through a similar issue w/ my new to me 2520 xld single f300 w/ seastar steering. my boat was a pristine fresh water only boat that was 300 hrs old when I bought it . I have had a lot of boats and this one tracked the worst of any i have had . every thing looked leak free and the fluid was very clean so I assumed the system needed to be bled. i also had a dead band at center on the helm. I spent wayyy to many hours chasing the issues I thought I had . I have been a auto mechanic by trade so a hydraulic system like this is simple and easy for me to comprehend. first I called seastar to make sure I understood the system, and did get some good info from them but no real eye openers. next per seastar, i emptied the system of all the perfect looking fluid , refilled w/ ATF as a recommended solvent and cycled / bled many times over 4-5 days to clean anything that might be in the system. then using over a gallon of aircraft fluid , flushed and refilled the system . I made a helm filler so I could have a foot of head pressure w/ an open reservoir above for filling and bleeding. very long story short, although the helm was very smooth and quite after all of this the dead band remained.

So it was time to investigate further. the helm itself simplified is a pump and a shuttle valve that directs fluid one way through the 2 hoses. the shuttle valve must see reverse pressure from the wheel being turned the opposite way before it moves (shuttles) and redirects fluid the other way. this valve movement is what you feel and hear just as you change wheel direction if the system is working correctly. there is a given amount of wheel movement that must take place before the shuttle moves and seals before fluid moves . this valve must not stick at all for the system to work at best, hence the reason for the atf flush.

so after all of the above my system was still marginal imo. with no load on the motor on the trailer on in the water at low speed the dead band is there but minimal. the entire system is very smooth , i have even disconnected the ram and checked the motor steer shaft ect , ect. when on the plane at speed the boat wanders more than i am used to and takes more wheel movement to correct than seems normal.

so after another call to seastar and relating all of the above to them they did admit to a given deadband as normal. it makes sense when you understand the function of the shuttle valve in the helm pump. the kicker in my case is that to keep steering effort reasonable on a manual hydraulic system w/ a motor of my size you must have many turns lock to lock at the helm ( close to 5 if i remember correct ). the lower geared the steering is the bigger the deadband ( slop) at the helm. so if I had say 2 turns lock to lock the deadband would just about disappear but would require power steering to move the wheel. this is why a i/o w/ power steering is so nice and precise. In a manual system like mine the helm to cylinder fluid displacement is a compromise.

So again after the 3rd call to seastar and to a aftermarket helm pump rebuilder I have concluded that what i have works correctly just not ideally.

The best diagnostic tool I got out of seastar is the shove test. it tells all and tests many things in simple test. at rest , you go to the back of the motor and just try to turn it against the ram and note the movement you can get at the ram to cylinder, up to 3/8" or so is considered by seastar to be normal. when the system is correct this is a combo of hose pressure flex and what is required to lock the shuttle in one direction or the other. I was initially shocked at the movement in mine and thought it was air but now understand why it moves and why the boat wanders. hose pressure flex can be a real problem w/ longer hoses and is why seastar offers big bucks low flex hose options. when you do this test if thing are free to move as they should you can hear shuttle valve move at the helm. any more than 3/8to 1/2" ram movement indicates 1 or more problems from air to leaks to bad valving, seals ect.

I still dont like mine and would sure like it better , but it my specific system i feel i might be beating a dead horse.

hope this helps. comments any one?
Once again, great information!.... Our last boat had a Wagner commercial hydraulic steering system. (two helms). The entire piping system was copper piping, except for 2 feet at the ram. It had numerous joints and couplings. Never had to bleed the system in 28 years of ownership; it was 'self-bleeding' through a tube/device at the ram! After 19-20 years a small leak started in the ram and had to purchase a seal-kit from Canada to 'rebuild' it. It is still in perfect shape to this day, with no issues and no leaks.
 
Last edited:

chas650r

Active member
Joined
Jul 7, 2020
Messages
31
Reaction score
8
Location
santa barbara ca
Same here, no spring back . As for the second video, that is exactly what my system acts like. As Andy appears to have the same boat and motor as mine(2012), if the seastar components are the same I still have an issue. I was ready to throw money at it but could never find a definitive problem.

Andy I assume the shove test shows minimal if any movement? The movement in mine has never seemed correct . Do you know the componant part numbers? Mine are helm pump #hh 5261-3 and cyl #hc 5358.
 

chas650r

Active member
Joined
Jul 7, 2020
Messages
31
Reaction score
8
Location
santa barbara ca
Andy, just watched the bleed videos , thanks! are there any check valves in bleed lines? I have always questioned the horazonal fill line behind the dash. Seems to me a great place for air to be trapped and have seen air in that line move back and forth w/o coming to the top of the fill tube at the bottle. maybe a line directly to the helm pump behind the dash for fill might be better??
 

Andy

Well-known member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
506
Reaction score
182
Location
Pungo Creek, NC
Same here, no spring back . As for the second video, that is exactly what my system acts like. As Andy appears to have the same boat and motor as mine(2012), if the seastar components are the same I still have an issue. I was ready to throw money at it but could never find a definitive problem.

Andy I assume the shove test shows minimal if any movement? The movement in mine has never seemed correct . Do you know the componant part numbers? Mine are helm pump #hh 5261-3 and cyl #hc 5358.
Same here, no spring back . As for the second video, that is exactly what my system acts like. As Andy appears to have the same boat and motor as mine(2012), if the seastar components are the same I still have an issue. I was ready to throw money at it but could never find a definitive problem.

Andy I assume the shove test shows minimal if any movement? The movement in mine has never seemed correct . Do you know the componant part numbers? Mine are helm pump #hh 5261-3 and cyl #hc 5358.
My steering was sloppy and had massive 'skips' shortly after I bought it. At first I ignored it, then it kept getting worse; that's when I got the bleed kit, and posted the 3 videos. I have had zero 'skipping' and there is no play in the wheel now. When the wheel turns at all, the motor does too...
Here are my numbers you requested; (Looks like ours are the same).
Helm pump I/S station; #hh-5261-3 /(HA 5430)
Helm pump O/S station; #HH- 5218 / (HA 5218)
Cylinder: #hc 5358
Also, I/S Mod Helm; #HH 5778 SS Pro 04 08 14 A
 

Andy

Well-known member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
506
Reaction score
182
Location
Pungo Creek, NC
Andy, just watched the bleed videos , thanks! are there any check valves in bleed lines? I have always questioned the horazonal fill line behind the dash. Seems to me a great place for air to be trapped and have seen air in that line move back and forth w/o coming to the top of the fill tube at the bottle. maybe a line directly to the helm pump behind the dash for fill might be better??
Hi Chas650, I know my videos are 'basic', but there is usually some added information typed in the 'Comments'. Thank you for watching!.... Having the second, cockpit steering station, I have more fittings, like 'T's and such, but no check valves.... Whoops, do you mean 'check-valves' in the Bubble-Purge systems lines? If so, the answer is no. There are quick-link, snap-on stop-valves, but no one-way check valves that I remember. I'll double check that in the morning, I will correct this if my memory is wrong.
....... I too have questioned the sense in the horizontal fill line behind the dash. I'm sure that it was done to save room at the control station; more room in the pilothouse. The unit could have been surface-mounted (like the one in the cockpit), instead of 'recessed', but that would have taken up another 5-6" of space inside. But, if it had been, you would be able to add the fluid directly to the pump. I wish, at least, that horizontal hose was slanted at a higher angle/more vertically; The 'remote fill cap could have been installed at least a few inched higher on the dash. I've thought about changing it, but so far that thought hasn't turned into action....
 

Andy

Well-known member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
506
Reaction score
182
Location
Pungo Creek, NC
408.......... I went through a similar issue w/ my new to me 2520 xld single f300 w/ seastar steering. my boat was a pristine fresh water only boat that was 300 hrs old when I bought it . I have had a lot of boats and this one tracked the worst of any i have had . every thing looked leak free and the fluid was very clean so I assumed the system needed to be bled. i also had a dead band at center on the helm. I spent wayyy to many hours chasing the issues I thought I had . I have been a auto mechanic by trade so a hydraulic system like this is simple and easy for me to comprehend. first I called seastar to make sure I understood the system, and did get some good info from them but no real eye openers. next per seastar, i emptied the system of all the perfect looking fluid , refilled w/ ATF as a recommended solvent and cycled / bled many times over 4-5 days to clean anything that might be in the system. then using over a gallon of aircraft fluid , flushed and refilled the system . I made a helm filler so I could have a foot of head pressure w/ an open reservoir above for filling and bleeding. very long story short, although the helm was very smooth and quite after all of this the dead band remained.

So it was time to investigate further. the helm itself simplified is a pump and a shuttle valve that directs fluid one way through the 2 hoses. the shuttle valve must see reverse pressure from the wheel being turned the opposite way before it moves (shuttles) and redirects fluid the other way. this valve movement is what you feel and hear just as you change wheel direction if the system is working correctly. there is a given amount of wheel movement that must take place before the shuttle moves and seals before fluid moves . this valve must not stick at all for the system to work at best, hence the reason for the atf flush.

so after all of the above my system was still marginal imo. with no load on the motor on the trailer on in the water at low speed the dead band is there but minimal. the entire system is very smooth , i have even disconnected the ram and checked the motor steer shaft ect , ect. when on the plane at speed the boat wanders more than i am used to and takes more wheel movement to correct than seems normal.

so after another call to seastar and relating all of the above to them they did admit to a given deadband as normal. it makes sense when you understand the function of the shuttle valve in the helm pump. the kicker in my case is that to keep steering effort reasonable on a manual hydraulic system w/ a motor of my size you must have many turns lock to lock at the helm ( close to 5 if i remember correct ). the lower geared the steering is the bigger the deadband ( slop) at the helm. so if I had say 2 turns lock to lock the deadband would just about disappear but would require power steering to move the wheel. this is why a i/o w/ power steering is so nice and precise. In a manual system like mine the helm to cylinder fluid displacement is a compromise.

So again after the 3rd call to seastar and to a aftermarket helm pump rebuilder I have concluded that what i have works correctly just not ideally.

The best diagnostic tool I got out of seastar is the shove test. it tells all and tests many things in simple test. at rest , you go to the back of the motor and just try to turn it against the ram and note the movement you can get at the ram to cylinder, up to 3/8" or so is considered by seastar to be normal. when the system is correct this is a combo of hose pressure flex and what is required to lock the shuttle in one direction or the other. I was initially shocked at the movement in mine and thought it was air but now understand why it moves and why the boat wanders. hose pressure flex can be a real problem w/ longer hoses and is why seastar offers big bucks low flex hose options. when you do this test if thing are free to move as they should you can hear shuttle valve move at the helm. any more than 3/8to 1/2" ram movement indicates 1 or more problems from air to leaks to bad valving, seals ect.

I still dont like mine and would sure like it better , but it my specific system i feel i might be beating a dead horse.

hope this helps. comments any one?
I went back out to the boat today (In between rain drops) to re-try the 'shove-test' that you, SeaStar and Cheapie have been talking about.. I cannot move the motor by hand/body; not at all. Zero. None. No movement, no matter how much Arse I put into it, and I have some significant 'heft' to apply to the test!... I tried in both directions and tried multiple times. There is no movement.... But, before I bled the system (a year or so ago), I remember that I was able to move it by 'the shove-test'.....
 

Cheapie408

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2021
Messages
120
Reaction score
19
Looks like I'll have to go back out and try to bleed once more today. Will kee
I went back out to the boat today (In between rain drops) to re-try the 'shove-test' that you, SeaStar and Cheapie have been talking about.. I cannot move the motor by hand/body; not at all. Zero. None. No movement, no matter how much Arse I put into it, and I have some significant 'heft' to apply to the test!... I tried in both directions and tried multiple times. There is no movement.... But, before I bled the system (a year or so ago), I remember that I was able to move it by 'the shove-test'.....
My issue hasn't been the motor moving, it's rock solid. I do the kick test and could probably kick the boat off the trailer w/o it moving if I was superman. It's the slop in the steering that's bugging me and wonder if it's a contribution to the vibration I'm feeling.

I spent 3 days straight bleeding this thing to death and half a gallon of fluids. All the big bubbles are gone and no micro bubbles at the ram. However I can not get rid of the microbubbls at the helm coming back to the bottle. What's driving me nuts is I try to push the helm to its limits and there is no signs of leak anywhere.

I should have some decent weather this weekend, going to take it out a the 2nd time and do another sea trial
 

chas650r

Active member
Joined
Jul 7, 2020
Messages
31
Reaction score
8
Location
santa barbara ca
I went back out to the boat today (In between rain drops) to re-try the 'shove-test' that you, SeaStar and Cheapie have been talking about.. I cannot move the motor by hand/body; not at all. Zero. None. No movement, no matter how much Arse I put into it, and I have some significant 'heft' to apply to the test!... I tried in both directions and tried multiple times. There is no movement.... But, before I bled the system (a year or so ago), I remember that I was able to move it by 'the shove-test'.....
thanks for the re-try! this gives me hope that i ca get mine right one way or another. I bought the special thread sealing plugs for the seastar compression fittings so I can deadhead the pump and or the cylinder to try and determine where the issue is. These plugs seal off the hose fittings so I can do the shove test w/o the hoses or helm pump in the system and the ram full of fluid. If the ram still moves , which I doubt , the issue is w/ the ram. If the ram wont move the problem is in the helm or hoses. my guess is the helm has air or some type of seal issue.
 

Andy

Well-known member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
506
Reaction score
182
Location
Pungo Creek, NC
Looks like I'll have to go back out and try to bleed once more today. Will kee


My issue hasn't been the motor moving, it's rock solid. I do the kick test and could probably kick the boat off the trailer w/o it moving if I was superman. It's the slop in the steering that's bugging me and wonder if it's a contribution to the vibration I'm feeling.

I spent 3 days straight bleeding this thing to death and half a gallon of fluids. All the big bubbles are gone and no micro bubbles at the ram. However I can not get rid of the microbubbls at the helm coming back to the bottle. What's driving me nuts is I try to push the helm to its limits and there is no signs of leak anywhere.

I should have some decent weather this weekend, going to take it out a the 2nd time and do another sea trial
The fact that you used two quarts of fluid shows that your system was super-low on fluid! I purged my boat, (as shown in the videos), and three other similar boats, and used just 2/3 (just two/thirds) of One quart total for all four boats. They all had 'skipping/sloppy' steering.
 

chas650r

Active member
Joined
Jul 7, 2020
Messages
31
Reaction score
8
Location
santa barbara ca
Looks like I'll have to go back out and try to bleed once more today. Will kee


My issue hasn't been the motor moving, it's rock solid. I do the kick test and could probably kick the boat off the trailer w/o it moving if I was superman. It's the slop in the steering that's bugging me and wonder if it's a contribution to the vibration I'm feeling.

I spent 3 days straight bleeding this thing to death and half a gallon of fluids. All the big bubbles are gone and no micro bubbles at the ram. However I can not get rid of the microbubbls at the helm coming back to the bottle. What's driving me nuts is I try to push the helm to its limits and there is no signs of leak anywhere.

I should have some decent weather this weekend, going to take it out a the 2nd time and do another sea trial
thanks for the report, does the helm still bounce back? if so that sounds like an issue , not sure if it's "the issue" but it sounds wrong. good luck on the sea trial and let us know.
 

Cheapie408

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2021
Messages
120
Reaction score
19
thanks for the report, does the helm still bounce back? if so that sounds like an issue , not sure if it's "the issue" but it sounds wrong. good luck on the sea trial and let us know.
Yup helm still bouncing back at the port side lock position. Is it not supposed to?
 

chas650r

Active member
Joined
Jul 7, 2020
Messages
31
Reaction score
8
Location
santa barbara ca
Yup helm still bouncing back at the port side lock position. Is it not supposed to?
I don't think so, andy's and mine don't fwiw. anything "bouncy" in a hydrualic system sounds like air or??. You might call the tech line at seastar , they were fairly good on the phone although I now feel they may have been giving me a bit of CYA about the shove test. If yours and andy's don't move I don't think mine should either. I have got to do a bit more investigating .
 

Andy

Well-known member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
506
Reaction score
182
Location
Pungo Creek, NC
I don't think so, andy's and mine don't fwiw. anything "bouncy" in a hydrualic system sounds like air or??. You might call the tech line at seastar , they were fairly good on the phone although I now feel they may have been giving me a bit of CYA about the shove test. If yours and andy's don't move I don't think mine should either. I have got to do a bit more investigating .
dittos on what Chas650r says here.... There is no 'bounce-back' on our Parker, and I can say I've never had that conditions on my other boats either. (Last boat; Wagner Hydraulic steering; 28 years; the 'bounce-back' never occurred). I don't recall ever seeing it before, other than in Cheapie408's video.
 

Cheapie408

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2021
Messages
120
Reaction score
19
Spoke to Seastar, they said I might have a bad unit. The brown color of my old fluid is an indication of contamination/rust. According to him, generally the Helm unit would be the issue as there are more metal components so he suggested replacing/rebuilding the helm first and see if it fixes the issue, if not move onto the next. The bouncing back is an indicatino of air in the system.
 

Andy

Well-known member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
506
Reaction score
182
Location
Pungo Creek, NC
Spoke to Seastar, they said I might have a bad unit. The brown color of my old fluid is an indication of contamination/rust. According to him, generally the Helm unit would be the issue as there are more metal components so he suggested replacing/rebuilding the helm first and see if it fixes the issue, if not move onto the next. The bouncing back is an indicatino of air in the system.
Cheapie408, I'm sorry to hear that; I was hoping it just needed bleeding; But on a possible brighter note, rebuilding the helm unit doesn't seem to be a major job, other than having to remove it from the boat. There are a lot of Youtube videos that show step-by-step how it's done. (I just watched one, The "Nissitissit Pantologist" and he has posted seven short, step-by-step video that seem complete)... He also mentioned a rebuild from a shop is about $200 and that a new unit is about $500? That is about 5-year-old information so is likely a bit more now...
 

Latest posts

Top