Batteries
- Thread starter MacFern
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greatcir
Well-known member
You can buy a voltage gauge for on your console to tell you all you want to know for from maybe $40 to $ hundreds (which have alarms to tell you when the battery is low). You can use the Yamaha gauge if you have it to see your voltage before you start the engine and see the voltage charging the battery you have on line. You can use a cheap voltage meter (bought my last one at Harbor Freight for $3) to put the probes on each battery post and check the DC voltage. There is a battery brain device to help keep a charge to start a motor but I have no experience with it.
If I think I have a battery going dead because of a bad cel I than take my car battery load tester to the boat and run a real load test on it. The tester gets hot and tells you about the strength of the battery to hold a load.
But I recently purchased:
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/store ... 00_200-3-4
to check the voltage on my port or my starboard battery but not have the gauge on all the time because of the three way switch. When I get around to installing it, it will give me an indication of the charge in each battery without turning the engine key on or if I am running the stbd battery on the engine I could flip the switch to the port battery and see the voltage on my backup battery.
More electrically informed can add a bunch to this subject. ...........Pete
If I think I have a battery going dead because of a bad cel I than take my car battery load tester to the boat and run a real load test on it. The tester gets hot and tells you about the strength of the battery to hold a load.
But I recently purchased:
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/store ... 00_200-3-4
to check the voltage on my port or my starboard battery but not have the gauge on all the time because of the three way switch. When I get around to installing it, it will give me an indication of the charge in each battery without turning the engine key on or if I am running the stbd battery on the engine I could flip the switch to the port battery and see the voltage on my backup battery.
More electrically informed can add a bunch to this subject. ...........Pete
Jersey Jim
Well-known member
Macfern, yes there is an accurate and somewhat easy way to check the state of your batteries/cells. I don't recall if you said they were wet-cell batteries or not. In the event they are not absorptive glass mat (agm) or gel-cel batteries, you should use a hydrometer. This looks like a turkey baster that draws up electrolyte into a glass column. The specific gravity of your battery's acid will cause the insert to suspend at varying heights within the acid. The one reading to remember is 1.265 and indicates a specific gravity that should yield 12.65 volts. This is merely a coincidence, and why it's so easy to remember, moving the decimal place on position. This should be the volt reading of a battery in perfect condition, taken without any load on it.
What's more important is the "difference" between the cell readings. If you have a reading that varies more than .050 on your hydrometer, between the 6 cells, then you might have a bad cell. I would also like to mention that you should not take a reading immediately after the battery was removed from the charger. Allow an hour or two for the "surface charge" to dissipate prior to reading the voltage or specific gravity.
You are on the right track if you maintain your batteries. Sulfation is the leading killer of wet-cell batteries. This occurs at an accelerated rate if your batteries spend most of their down-time disconnected from a charger. You should consider a float charger for maintaining your batteries at 13.8 volts when not in use. My motorhome batteries cost over $600 to replace the pair. Twelve months out of the year I have them plugged in and floating in order to prolong the period between replacement. It looks like I will get the full 10 years out of those 400 Ah Trojan batteries, only due to the fact that sulfation is never allowed to occur within the cells. Also, fill your cells "after" a charge, assuming the cell tops were still wet prior to connecting the charger. This will avoid boil-over/spillage. Also, NEVER put other than distilled water into your batteries!
Take care of your batteries and they will be worth the weight they take up by yielding their maximum capacity. Nothing worse than hauling around two or three batteries with a combined capacity of less than one good one.
Jim
What's more important is the "difference" between the cell readings. If you have a reading that varies more than .050 on your hydrometer, between the 6 cells, then you might have a bad cell. I would also like to mention that you should not take a reading immediately after the battery was removed from the charger. Allow an hour or two for the "surface charge" to dissipate prior to reading the voltage or specific gravity.
You are on the right track if you maintain your batteries. Sulfation is the leading killer of wet-cell batteries. This occurs at an accelerated rate if your batteries spend most of their down-time disconnected from a charger. You should consider a float charger for maintaining your batteries at 13.8 volts when not in use. My motorhome batteries cost over $600 to replace the pair. Twelve months out of the year I have them plugged in and floating in order to prolong the period between replacement. It looks like I will get the full 10 years out of those 400 Ah Trojan batteries, only due to the fact that sulfation is never allowed to occur within the cells. Also, fill your cells "after" a charge, assuming the cell tops were still wet prior to connecting the charger. This will avoid boil-over/spillage. Also, NEVER put other than distilled water into your batteries!
Take care of your batteries and they will be worth the weight they take up by yielding their maximum capacity. Nothing worse than hauling around two or three batteries with a combined capacity of less than one good one.
Jim
Pete and Jim, Thanks for the very informative and helpful information. I've only had my boat for about two years, and the batteries have never given me a problem. But I have pretty much ignored them during that time, and it just dawned on me that they are probably already damaged and destined to fail soon. I guess I was thinking that the charge they received while running was sufficient. I saw the post about the various chargers others have installed on their boats, and that is on my project list.
I do have a very old battery charger that I have used a few times when the boat sat a while. If that is not a float charger can I cause more harm than good if I leave it (or have left it) charging for too long. I have only topped off the water level with distilled water, but the level was kind of low by the time I had checked it. I'll them with a hydrometer to start, but does it sound like I should plan on replacing them.
I do have a very old battery charger that I have used a few times when the boat sat a while. If that is not a float charger can I cause more harm than good if I leave it (or have left it) charging for too long. I have only topped off the water level with distilled water, but the level was kind of low by the time I had checked it. I'll them with a hydrometer to start, but does it sound like I should plan on replacing them.
I found what I believe is a cheap version of a hydrometer that I had in the garage. Tested each battery and most of the cells only floated 3 out of the 4 balls. Which indicates 75% charged according to the directions. Would this likely be consistant with a real hydrometer, and if so does this mean replace batteries now, or is there some life left in them. If this $.97 cent tester is not at all reliable I will go buy a real hydrometer, but based on my own neglect I expect poor results. So my last question is, does it matter what brand to replace with. I have the Interstate.
Jersey Jim
Well-known member
Mac, I would wait until you have a more accurate hydrometer before jumping to any conclusions. What you have in your favor is that the batteries may be more tolerant to neglect in their early years. The hdyrometer you should be looking for has a floating insert made of glass that has printed graduations inside of it. This floating tube will be calibrated by tiny shot at the base of the tube. It will vary it's buoyancy by the slightest amount when the acid changes. The printed numbers should be recorded on paper for each cell as they are tested. Like I said, it's the difference between the cells that indicates a problem.
And yes, the wrong kind of charger can damage a battery if left on indefinitely. I have always liked a 3-stage charger that puts the bulk of the power back into the batteries very quickly (constant current). This will allow the battery voltage to climb as the charge progresses. Stage 2 will switch to constant voltage once reaching a particular voltage. The charge current will then decrease as the internal resistance changes as the charge progresses. The final stage (float charge) will initiate once the charging current tapers down to a set level. The battery will then be maintained at 13.8 volts, and can be (and should be) left there continually.
If your boat is conveniently located at home, you can get away with placing the float charger on the battery for a couple of days every so often. Being that boats usually have disconnect or isolation switches, parasitic loads from connected equipmnet that is switched off is not of concern. It is strictly the extent of you battery's internal dischage characteristics that will determine how frequently the float charger would have automatically switched on and off (depending on type). I use a simple little "Battery Tender" and an extension cord. It usually takes over a day to bring up the state of both batteries (switched/combined) together to the 13.8 volts needed to switch the charger's indicator from red to green. Mine is strictly a single-stage (3rd stage) float charger of only an amp or two capacity.
Wait until you take your hydrometer readings before tossing out your batteries. Have you taken an open-circuit volt reading of them yet, and what did they read? Just remember, even some camera batteries can read 12 volts on a meter, but they won't crank over your motor. And just because your car battery can light the interior dome-light just fine doesn't mean the engine will crank either. And lastly, just because your engine cranks, doesn't mean it will crank for as many minutes as it would have when it was new. Most people never put a known test-load on a battery when the battery is new, record the duration/capacity, and retest every year or so with the same test-load. My point is, battery performance can be very deceiving. And one final piece of battery trivia, battery capacity ratings are determined under load for a standardized number of hours, usually terminating at 10.5 volts.
I hope this helps some.
And yes, the wrong kind of charger can damage a battery if left on indefinitely. I have always liked a 3-stage charger that puts the bulk of the power back into the batteries very quickly (constant current). This will allow the battery voltage to climb as the charge progresses. Stage 2 will switch to constant voltage once reaching a particular voltage. The charge current will then decrease as the internal resistance changes as the charge progresses. The final stage (float charge) will initiate once the charging current tapers down to a set level. The battery will then be maintained at 13.8 volts, and can be (and should be) left there continually.
If your boat is conveniently located at home, you can get away with placing the float charger on the battery for a couple of days every so often. Being that boats usually have disconnect or isolation switches, parasitic loads from connected equipmnet that is switched off is not of concern. It is strictly the extent of you battery's internal dischage characteristics that will determine how frequently the float charger would have automatically switched on and off (depending on type). I use a simple little "Battery Tender" and an extension cord. It usually takes over a day to bring up the state of both batteries (switched/combined) together to the 13.8 volts needed to switch the charger's indicator from red to green. Mine is strictly a single-stage (3rd stage) float charger of only an amp or two capacity.
Wait until you take your hydrometer readings before tossing out your batteries. Have you taken an open-circuit volt reading of them yet, and what did they read? Just remember, even some camera batteries can read 12 volts on a meter, but they won't crank over your motor. And just because your car battery can light the interior dome-light just fine doesn't mean the engine will crank either. And lastly, just because your engine cranks, doesn't mean it will crank for as many minutes as it would have when it was new. Most people never put a known test-load on a battery when the battery is new, record the duration/capacity, and retest every year or so with the same test-load. My point is, battery performance can be very deceiving. And one final piece of battery trivia, battery capacity ratings are determined under load for a standardized number of hours, usually terminating at 10.5 volts.
I hope this helps some.
andertonm
Well-known member
I own a service station and we use a $1500 conductance tester to test batteries. It tells you the "state of charge" and the ability of the battery to deliver some percentage of the rated cold (or marine) cranking amps. It depends on the battery being properly charged. Here's the problem, though. Deep cycle batteries are EXTREMELY difficult to bring back to life when completely discharged. It is my opinion that you should not use deep cycles on your boat unless you have a lot of "house" functions and most of us with Parkers do not - we need cranking batteries. I have brought deep cycles back to life from dead by charging at 40 amps for about 18 hours. Stay away from them. Go to a good shop and get your batteries fully charged at high current and then check with a conductance tester. Normal home chargers will not pull enough current to clean the plates on a battery that has been discharged for a long period of time. I worked at West Marine for a while and we did a lot of warranty replacements on deep cycle batteries that the owners could not recharge. Stay with cranking batteries and get them charged by a shop that can do 40+ amps.
Deltajoe
Well-known member
I agree with Mark, When I bought my 2320 last April this is 2006(Left Over) boat. When I first ran it with very little electronics no problems,Then I added the radar,cd,marine radio,2 gps and a couple of other things, I would let the boat set for a week DEAD BATTERIES. I would charge them up go out with no problems.Check them in a couple of days DEAD BATTERIES , I thought I had a bad float switch or something was drawing my batteries down.Pulled them off the boat and charged them up in the garage when I checked them the next day I lost 4 volts 8.5 on one and 10 on the other .So I went to interstate battery store and Found out batteries were out of warranty and one had a bad cell and the other had 3 bad cell There are date codes on them Jan is A Feb is B and so on so you will know what month and the year . My batteries were OCTOBER 05 .The Battery man at Interstate told me the same thing as Mark is saying I don't need Deep Cycle Batteries so I have 2 Starting Batteries in my boat now. The Dealer I bought my boat from gave me 2 new deep cycle at no charge So I went back to interstate paid the difference and got starting batteries. They been in for two weeks now and are still holding over 12 vdc.
Joe
Joe
Jersey Jim
Well-known member
Mark & Joe, these are all good points. I think a few things are stacked against boat owners when it comes to batteries. And if one is not concious of what destroys a battery, there is no post-damage solution to that neglect, such as a lengthly equalizing charge. Regardless of deep-cycle or cranking battery types, outboards tend to have smaller charging outputs. For example, my little F115 has only 25 amps of charging output. Another disadvantage is the battery selector switch. Many might inadvertently have only one battery charging during the short time the motor is running. Also, infrequent weekend use just doesn't allow the battery to charge much. It is my preference to use deep-cycle if I were forced to use just one type for both battery compartments. Electronics are usually on during the entire time out, but cranking needs are typically brief, infrequent and minimal. Cranking batteries do not hold up well to continuous loads like deep-cycles do as I'm sure you know, and will start to show wear and tear when subjected to those conditions. No matter which type one uses, neither battery type will hold up unless they are placed on a suitable charger "AS SOON" as returning to the dock or home. ANY battery left in a partial state of discharge will begin to show the effects of sulfation. It's all about prevention.
Macfern":1wt9ktfe said:
Never ignore them. Check the water level every once in a while. During charging some of the water can vaporize. Over time, the level drops. If the plates get exposed, an arc can occur in the hydrogen gas above the plates, and KaBoom. Had a friend who had the top 1/2 of his battery blow off spewing acid all over the back of the boat.
Keep them topped off (distilled water only), keep them charged, and keep the posts clean. They will last a long time.
Dave
aka
Thanks for all the info.
I also did a search for previous posts about batteries and found this comment by Dale, any thoughts on the WalMart comment?
"Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Great Info, Thanks!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T-Bro wrote:
The $400 price also seems steep, compared to around $200 for two new Exides.
Costco had glassmat AGMs on sale the other day for ~$150 each.
Two 27s would run < $200.
FWIW a friend, PhD in Applied Physics working on battery stuff for new torpedoes, swears by Wal*Mart batteries. He says 'regardless of brand', all 12VDC batteries (wetcells) are only coming out of 2 or 3 factories and that they're most likely the same. Just buy one made this Spring - most are marked with a date of Mfg'r.
I also did a search for previous posts about batteries and found this comment by Dale, any thoughts on the WalMart comment?
"Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Great Info, Thanks!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T-Bro wrote:
The $400 price also seems steep, compared to around $200 for two new Exides.
Costco had glassmat AGMs on sale the other day for ~$150 each.
Two 27s would run < $200.
FWIW a friend, PhD in Applied Physics working on battery stuff for new torpedoes, swears by Wal*Mart batteries. He says 'regardless of brand', all 12VDC batteries (wetcells) are only coming out of 2 or 3 factories and that they're most likely the same. Just buy one made this Spring - most are marked with a date of Mfg'r.
It does not look like I will have the time to more fully inspect the condition of my batteries. I have not had the time to purchase a hydrometer, and I am trying to finish off everything at work so I can head doew to the keys on Thursday. I did check with a volt meter this morning, one battery was at 12.21, and the other was at 12.42. When I check the battery meter on the console it's right at 12 for one, and 11.8 for the other. Does this tell you anything? I did put the charger on before leaving for work, set it at 8 hours. At this point I just need to decide if they are good enough for this upcoming trip, if not I need to find the time to replace them.
Jersey Jim
Well-known member
Macfern, I can not tell what size outboard you have (another reason to update your profile with "boat-type"), but like I've mentioned before, outboards typically have smaller charging outputs than autos. Any hp between 200-250 (4-stroke Yamaha) will have 45-46 amp charging output, 35A for a 150 hp, and 25 amp for a 115. Regardless, I would bring a little charger to utilize whenever you can back at the dock. If you're really worried about it, be sure to charge both batteries on the way out but "reserve" one of them for last-ditch-effort starting. After all, all you need from the backup battery is one good start. Just be sure to prove that one-time starting ability at the dock first. If you feel both batteries have been charged equally, take a voltmeter reading from the isolated batteries. Reserve the one with the highest reading as the never-used backup battery. As a last resort, combine the two for starting, as a questionable battery can detract from the cranking capacity of a good one.
You may even consider a stowable solar panel with a charge controller and just plug it in to a cigarette/power outlet for easy connection, in order to keep your batties topped off if the dock has no power. From what I've heard, and without knowing all the particulars, my gut feeling is that your 2-year old batteries are probably up to the trip you have planned. If you feel they're not once you get down there, batteries are sold everywhere and quick to install.
I forgot to mention in the prior post, whenever trying a new float-type charger, verify the charger's regulation of 13.8 volts by taking a volt meter reading every so many hours. Insure that once the voltage has finally finished climbing, that it does not exceed 13.8 volts.
What are the particulars of your trip? Are you trailering, slipping? Power, no power at the dock. How often do you plan to use the boat on the trip?
Wish it were me
You may even consider a stowable solar panel with a charge controller and just plug it in to a cigarette/power outlet for easy connection, in order to keep your batties topped off if the dock has no power. From what I've heard, and without knowing all the particulars, my gut feeling is that your 2-year old batteries are probably up to the trip you have planned. If you feel they're not once you get down there, batteries are sold everywhere and quick to install.
I forgot to mention in the prior post, whenever trying a new float-type charger, verify the charger's regulation of 13.8 volts by taking a volt meter reading every so many hours. Insure that once the voltage has finally finished climbing, that it does not exceed 13.8 volts.
What are the particulars of your trip? Are you trailering, slipping? Power, no power at the dock. How often do you plan to use the boat on the trip?
Wish it were me
Thanks Jim, I am going with the batteries I have. As I said earlier I have not had any problems with them, I just get a little paranoid when I read about all the maintenance standards everyone on this site adheres to. BTW the engine is a 225, and I did reply to a boat/boater profile a long time ago. As for the keys trip, I'm tailoring down, camping, boat will be in the water (but no power at the dock), and I will be using the boat most of the time we are there.
If you are traveling, or even if you are not... consider carrying a 'jump-start' battery if you are at all concerned about going dead on the water.
I've never needed my power-pak for me, but I have used it for other boaters that found themselves dead-in-the-water. :wink:
For what it is worth... I have a pair of Group 27 Optima AGM's in my boat that are on their 5th season. Sometime this year or next, I will replace them with a pair of Group 31 Lifelines (anticipating radar) and put one of the boat batteries in my Jeep, and the other in the basement powering my emergency sump pump.
I have never had a battery related problem while using AGM batteries on my boat, or in my Jeep.
Your mileage may vary... :wink:
I've never needed my power-pak for me, but I have used it for other boaters that found themselves dead-in-the-water. :wink:
For what it is worth... I have a pair of Group 27 Optima AGM's in my boat that are on their 5th season. Sometime this year or next, I will replace them with a pair of Group 31 Lifelines (anticipating radar) and put one of the boat batteries in my Jeep, and the other in the basement powering my emergency sump pump.
I have never had a battery related problem while using AGM batteries on my boat, or in my Jeep.
Your mileage may vary... :wink:
Jersey Jim
Well-known member
Jersey Jim
Well-known member
That power pack looks taller than my batteries. If you notice, my compartments are only slightly taller than the batteries. It may fit on it's side. I'll have to measure the available space.
I think what will happen is what you stated in another post. I would end up aiding other boaters that need a jump instead of using it myself. This is what happened when I started carrying a self-contained Craftsmen auto compressor with built-in battery. I can't remember how many times I assisted others with it, and don't think I ever used it once for myself. Oh well, cheap insurance though.
I think what will happen is what you stated in another post. I would end up aiding other boaters that need a jump instead of using it myself. This is what happened when I started carrying a self-contained Craftsmen auto compressor with built-in battery. I can't remember how many times I assisted others with it, and don't think I ever used it once for myself. Oh well, cheap insurance though.
