Steering problems on the Horndog this weekend. (Any Ideas?)

[TopShot25]

Steering problems on the Horndog this weekend. (Any Ideas?)

Sorry if this is long, I just wanted to include all the details. Besides it's nice to know that other people have boat problems too! So hopefully it's amusing.

Took the boat out to chase fish this weekend and oh what a pain it was. Launched the boat and had my buddies hold it while I parked the truck. Came back, fired the engines, checked the bilge to make sure all was right, then pushed the boat away from the dock. (I warm up the engines while idling out to the bait barge.) Anyway now away from the dock I need to turn the boat around to leave the launch area. It’s a tight area so with the twin engines I turn the boat 180 degrees before I even touch the wheel. So now I take the wheel to maneuver out, and when I started to turn the wheel I have nothing, and I mean nothing, the wheel just spins. I tell my buddy to jump up top (to my topside station) and take us out of the launch area so I have room to check things out. Now when he turns the wheel, my wheel in the pilothouse just spins and the engines don’t move. I grab the wheel, and with it stopped the engines now move and he has control. So he takes us out into more open water and I check things out. No leaks or anything else I can find wrong. So back to the problem. Upon closer study I find that I can turn to port, but I have nothing to starboard. Also when we turn the wheel above I can hear the hydraulic fluid moving through the lower station. A sound like when you have a partially kinked garden hose.

Now being the stubborn Irishman I’m mostly proud to be, were going fishing anyway. So I tie the wheel in the pilothouse down so it won’t move, we get bait and off we go. No problem you say. Well just for the record, I don’t have my throttle controls up top yet. That means someone has to steer up top, while someone else controls the throttles down below. Makes for a fun day let me tell you. So when we get out to our chosen area we put the lines out and start trolling and searching for fish. After awhile I notice my buddy is constantly turning the wheel. He has to slowly and constantly turn the wheel to port. If he stops turning the wheel, the boat immediately turns hard over to starboard. I tell you it must have looked crazy to everyone around trolling. I’m sure they were trying to figure out if we were nuts, stupid or had some new killer trolling method. Anyway I connected a couple of bungee cords to the engines to pull the engines to port, and that made it much better.

So about 1 pm the wind comes up and it’s blowing 15+ with white caps everywhere and now it’s a real pain with spray splashing over the house. After about an hour of this I trade places and have my buddy steer while I go find my jacket. While down below I happened to notice the wheel in the pilothouse was not pulling to the side now. So I untie it and now it is working just fine. Worked perfect all the way home. Man I love boats.

It sounds like some kind of check valve may have stuck. I don’t know how the Seastar unit works, so I’m not sure if this is something I can repair or rebuild. If anyone has any ideas on how this works or what I may be dealing with I would appreciate the help. I thought this would be the best place before I pull my hair out.

Thanks,

 

[Bryan 2530]

I agree with the stuck valve theory, I'm having a similar problem but I know I have a leak at the cylinder and think I have air in it. I will replace the seals this winter, for now I just add a little fluid here and there.

I know grouper jim has a post somewhere about rebuilding the seastar check valves.

 

[TopShot25]

Thanks Bryan, I'll do a another search using check valves.

 

[BradV]

I notice that i have to keep a little tension on the wheel or else it will just turn on its own. I have the upper and lower station. I think part of the problem is not bleeding the system properly. I know I have to add oil every so often because the sun beats down pretty good and it overflows out the vented cap on the upper station. Depending on how old the system is you will probably need to mess with the seals on the motor. What probably happened was moving the upper station wheel alot pushed all the oil down below which allowed the lower station to work. Which means youre somehow losing oil at the cylinder or behind the lower helm.

 

[DaleH]

FWIW I run 2 stations too and check the VENTED one (the higher one) all the time. Turn all way one way slllllloooooooowly and check the level. With cap open, turn the same way hard - if fluid drops, you have air. As is, add some 'til the fluid is just below threads - see here for more Seastar filling info, per the book.

That said, I sometimes do check the rear station, but ONLY when I have not touched the steering wheel yet. I'll add some if needed. Then will SLOWLY, SLOWLY, SLOWLY turn the wheel one way or the other until it stops. SLOWLY open the non-vented cap, but get ready to close it FAST if any fluid comes out. Also, "tilt & rock" the cap a tad in its threads BEFORE removing ... as if/when you have air in the lines, you'll hear the cap "hiss" a bit. I've removed quite a lot of air in this way! It's like ferting :shock: , hehe! Repeat, but SLOWLY, SLOWLY, SLOWLY turn the wheel all the way the OTHER way, then repeat as per this paragraph.

FYI - if/when you have air in the system and the fluid gets below the ball bearing race, turning the wheel too fast causes the fluid to bubble! And if/when you ever hear a 'knock' whilst turning or feel a bump - check at your next opportunity. As stated, frequent checks and top-offs prevents re-bleeding in the traditinal manner. It is no replacement for good bleeding, but by doing so, I never have to fully bleed the system (using the special bleed port I made) at all during the season. Many times I'll do a fast check/fill while the engine warms, as I don't need to turn it to start it ... only need to drop it down into the water. (.. have only made that mistake once - doh!)

Those rear cylinders do weep oil and if you topped off in cold or cooler temps, you WILL lose fluid when it warms up. ... and then be 'low' on fluid again once it cools off, even at night ...

 

[Bryan 2530]

These are the posts I was talking about.

http://www.classicparker.com/phpBB2/vie ... php?t=5564

http://www.classicparker.com/phpBB2/vie ... php?t=5850

 

[Striperswiper]

You might be over thinking it Irsh.

Just check the fluid and bleed both stations, that should cure it.

Good Luck


Capt Brian

 

[grouperjim]

If you use the Seastar fluid......besides your time, that will be the most expensive aspect of trouble shooting.

My advice would be to first check for obvious leaks. If found, rectify the problem. Next, I would go ahead and clean the check valves. Easy to do and they probably need to be cleaned anyway. Finally, bleed/purge the system and refill to proper level. If you don't want to endure the "learning curve" for bleeding the system, then take it to a certified mechanic and have it power bled. Usually will be the cost of an hour of what ever the shop rate is. If you do it yourself, it will take about an hour of so, and the help of another person.

if the above doesn't fix the issue then there could be an internal issue with the helm pump. helms can be bought new online from go2marine $385. great company to deal with. they do price match as well.

FYI there is a new version of the helm that came in my 2320. same designation number but the housing is shaped slightly different as there is an indentation around the fill/vent cap, and the fill/vent cap is also different. supposedly the new ones are more reliable. i bought one, the new one has not leaked out of the fill/vent cap nor has there been any of the other minor issues i had with the original helm. don't know what they did internally, but it seem to be better.

good luck.

 

[Bryan 2530]

Next, I would go ahead and clean the check valves. Easy to do and they probably need to be cleaned anyway.

What are you finding in the cleck valves that they need to be cleaned?

Are there only 2 on the sides of the helm like in your other post? This will be one of my winter projects along with the seals on the ram.



Manual Link if anyone needs it:

http://ww2.seastarsteering.com/SHARED/g ... iles.htm&1

 

[grouperjim]

Next, I would go ahead and clean the check valves. Easy to do and they probably need to be cleaned anyway.

What are you finding in the cleck valves that they need to be cleaned?

Are there only 2 on the sides of the helm like in your other post? This will be one of my winter projects along with the seals on the ram.



Manual Link if anyone needs it:

http://ww2.seastarsteering.com/SHARED/g ... iles.htm&1

i have found some very small pieces of debris which looked like flecks of the black paint they use. but for the most part, the check valves get "gummed up" and stick. supposedly you can also pull out the little piston in between the check valves and clean those as well.

 

[TopShot25]

First, thanks for the continued help everyone.

OK, took my seastar unit out and pulled out the check valves. Everything looks clean, oil valves, springs and ball bearing. Everything looks brand new. I see now on grouperjim’s post that I may be able to pull out the center or piston, between the check valves. I’ll take a look at that tonight.

Thinking back on this, I believe my steering unit has been slowly deteriorating. So slow in fact that I had not even thought about it until now. This is the first hydraulic steering unit I’ve ever used on a boat. So aside from checking the oil level it seemed pretty maintenance free. So thinking on this, when I use the upper station it is real smooth while the lower unit seemed to pulsate. Does that make any sense? I can’t believe my steering unit can be worn out, as most of the time I use my autopilot. So what gives? I’d like to tear this thing apart and see how it works anyway, but I can’t go any further with out the rebuild kit. Does anyone know what a rebuild really does? It sounds to me like all that can be changed are seals. Can you actually rebuild it and restore it to new condition?

I’m also thinking back, and I know I read here awhile back that some of you are changing your hydraulic fluid. Something about the hydraulic fluid from Parker is not really that great and you were having much better luck with the seastar fluid. Would this be a contributing factor?

 

[Bryan 2530]

I think it was discussed earlier that the red fluid deteriorates the seals a little quicker, not sure how true that is but that was the theory.

When you guys disconnect the steering unit does alot of fluid drip all over the interior of the helm? How do you keep that from happening?

I will be rebuilding and cleaning my whole system this winter season.

 

[TopShot25]

I had about a pint drain out when I disconnected it. I put towels under it and a can just in case. I'm glad I had the can. Although I think mine drained that much because I have the upper helm station.

 

[DaleH]

FWIW we run PowerTech hydraulic fluid from Wally-World in all our boats, both hydraulic hlems and trim/tilt systems, and have for years ... with ZERO issues. Only $3/tube.

 

[grouperjim]

John......even though the removable housing, ball bearing, and spring appear clean, also make sure the area inside the helm where the ball bearing seats is clean.

 

[CCparker]

I would almost guarantee it is your helm pump gone bad. Same exact thing happened to me. What you are describing is almost word for word how I would have described my problem. On a good note, mine was just within the warranty period, which I believe is 3 years. Should be covered.

 

[TopShot25]

Thanks again guys.

I'm not sure but I did finally find some trouble shooting info on this and everything points to the check valves. I've cleaned, reassembled and reinstalled the unit. I will bleed it in the next few days and see what I end up with. CC, my unit is a 05' so I will just have to wait and see.