FUel Problem-- part 6 updated

[Bitesomthing]

Ok guys here is my latest fuel issue,
After finding a good amount of water and the Mystery white stuff in my 10 micron F/W filter. I decided to Clean out my fuel tank and see how bad it looked. remember i cleaned my fuel tank and all the filters in early July. Well when i got into my tank it was clean and there was none of the white stuff in it, or anything else except for a little Grit that clong on the tank after it was empty.
Question is---- Do you think there is anywy this white stuff could have formed in my fuel filter and do you think i may have pumped bad gas and the
filter did its job???
This Problem is really confusing to me.
By the way i am using the Blue YAMAHA 10 micron filter.
CHris

By the way: I have been doing a few test myself to see if i can duplicate the problem. I have four Bottles with different combonations They are:

1. Fuel- Water- Sea Salt

2. Fuel- Water- Sea Salt- Ringfree

3. Fuel- Water-sea Salt- Ring free- Aluminum (Aluminum Tank material)

These bottles have been sitting around for a week and NONE of the bottles has anything funky going on. I was really hoping i could duplicate the issue but it looks like my MYthbusting Days are a Bust.

 

[TomS]

In my opinion its entirely possible, but I have no proof or evidence to suggest this is what is happening. I did read somewhere that Ethanol had started to dissolve the glue used inside a Sierra fuel/water separator. A mechanic was trying to troubleshoot the source of contaminants found in the VST filter and eliminated everything but the f/w separator. He cut it open and found the particles matched. The other option is the engine mounted Yamaha fuel/water separator.

I've tried researching how fuel/water separators actually work and looking for some reference to sodium sulfate, but haven't found anything. The sodium sulfate may be the result of a chemical reaction of the ethanol based gasoline and something in the fuel filters, or a byproduct of the fuel water separator process.

-- Tom

 

[DaleH]

If you make it through reading below ... you'll see that sodium sulfate is added to alcohol-based fuels as a 'surface active agent' ... which I believe means it increases the fuel's water tolerance without phase separation.

While some surface active agents, such as lauryl sodium sulfate, have been found to have a negative effect and others, such as polyamines, no effect upon the toleration of water in an 80 percent gasoline--20 percent methanol composition, we have found selected surface active agents do have positive effect in lowering interfacial tension thereby substantially increasing water tolerance without phase separation. Suitable surface active agents are selected from the group consisting of ROH, R-NH.sub.2, R'CO-NH.sub.2, R".sup.1 -O-R".sup.2, R"'(CH.sub.2 CH.sub.2 O).sub.x H and dioxane wherein R is an alkyl group of 4 to 10 carbon atoms, R' is either -NH.sub.2 or an alkyl group of 1 to 7 carbon atoms and R".sup.1 and R".sup.2 are each an alkyl group of 2 to 7 hydrocarbon atoms, R"' is an alkyl phenol group where the alkyl group has 5 to 9 carbon atoms and x is an integer of 5 to about 15. The alkyl groups may be straight or branched chain or cyclic. Specific surface active agents which improve the water tolerance of gasoline-methanol blends include higher alkanols such as butanol, pentanol, hexanol, heptanol, octanol, nonanol, and decanol. Particularly preferred are normal pentanol and normal octanol. Also effective are alkyl primary amines such as butyl amine, pentyl amine, hexyl amine, heptyl amine, octyl amine, nonyl amine, and decyl amine. Also useful are alkyl amides such as methyl amide, ethyl amid, propyl amide, butyl amide, pentyl amide, hexyl amide, heptyl amide and urea. Urea is particularly preferred because of its high effectiveness at low concentration and its low cost and abundant availability. Alkyl ethers such as ethyl, propyl, butyl, pentyl, hexyl and heptyl ethers which may be symmetrical or non-symmetrical are suitable. Cyclic ethers such as dioxane are suitable. Non-ionic surfactants such as alkyl phenols with polyethoxylated groups are suitable including heptylphenoxy polyethoxy ethanol, octylphenoxy polyethoxy ethanol and nonylphenoxy polyethoxy ethanol. Particularly preferred is octylphenoxy polyethoxy ethanol.

 

[Outta Here]

That's EXACTLY what I was thinking. :roll:

 

[TomS]

The way I "read" it, it sounds like the sodium sulfate decreases the ability of gasoline to tolerate water without phase separation.

-- Tom

 

[Bitesomthing]

Read it??? i can barely pronounce most of it...

Do you have a lay-man's Version?? or am i just stupid.

Chris

 

[Megabyte]

That's EXACTLY what I was thinking. :roll:

:lol:

 

[Seneca Lake Dave]

So I just asked the arab gentlemen at the 76 station on the corner if he had any non-symetrical octylphenoxy polyethoxy ethanol. He just stared at me. He may have had a problem understanding my NJ accent.

I tried to explain the issue of phase separation...but still, no response. Does anyone speak arabic?

 

[hakr]

If you make it through reading below ... you'll see that sodium sulfate is added to alcohol-based fuels as a 'surface active agent' ... which I believe means it increases the fuel's water tolerance without phase separation.

While some surface active agents, such as lauryl sodium sulfate, have been found to have a negative effect and others, such as polyamines, no effect upon the toleration of water in an 80 percent gasoline--20 percent methanol composition, we have found selected surface active agents do have positive effect in lowering interfacial tension thereby substantially increasing water tolerance without phase separation. Suitable surface active agents are selected from the group consisting of ROH, R-NH.sub.2, R'CO-NH.sub.2, R".sup.1 -O-R".sup.2, R"'(CH.sub.2 CH.sub.2 O).sub.x H and dioxane wherein R is an alkyl group of 4 to 10 carbon atoms, R' is either -NH.sub.2 or an alkyl group of 1 to 7 carbon atoms and R".sup.1 and R".sup.2 are each an alkyl group of 2 to 7 hydrocarbon atoms, R"' is an alkyl phenol group where the alkyl group has 5 to 9 carbon atoms and x is an integer of 5 to about 15. The alkyl groups may be straight or branched chain or cyclic. Specific surface active agents which improve the water tolerance of gasoline-methanol blends include higher alkanols such as butanol, pentanol, hexanol, heptanol, octanol, nonanol, and decanol. Particularly preferred are normal pentanol and normal octanol. Also effective are alkyl primary amines such as butyl amine, pentyl amine, hexyl amine, heptyl amine, octyl amine, nonyl amine, and decyl amine. Also useful are alkyl amides such as methyl amide, ethyl amid, propyl amide, butyl amide, pentyl amide, hexyl amide, heptyl amide and urea. Urea is particularly preferred because of its high effectiveness at low concentration and its low cost and abundant availability. Alkyl ethers such as ethyl, propyl, butyl, pentyl, hexyl and heptyl ethers which may be symmetrical or non-symmetrical are suitable. Cyclic ethers such as dioxane are suitable. Non-ionic surfactants such as alkyl phenols with polyethoxylated groups are suitable including heptylphenoxy polyethoxy ethanol, octylphenoxy polyethoxy ethanol and nonylphenoxy polyethoxy ethanol. Particularly preferred is octylphenoxy polyethoxy ethanol.

So, this makes it ok to drink, right? Sheesh!

 

[Peregrine]

As another sharing in the "challange" of sodium sulfate-~$3,000.00 to date, new injectors most recently as a goodwill gesture from Yamaha-I'm curious about interactions between sodium sulfate and the various additives we put in our tanks-Ring Free, Stabil, Startron, etc. and the various additives the fuel companies put in in combination with same.

Why do some boats, in the same region, have the issue and not others? I have several friends with boats-2 Parkers, 1 Bayrunner, 1 Boston Whaler, and some kind of river boat. 4 with Yamaha's, 1 with Optibomb. I am alone in dealing with this issue. Of the Parker's, one has more hours, one less. There is no common thread in anything I have read locally. Nationally, it does seem to be related to MTBE vs Ethanol. In my case and Bitesomthing's case we have both pumped our tanks dry and yet it persists.

I have two micron Racors (60 GPH) yet the sodium sulfate get's past them and builds up in the little servicable filter on the front of the engine and the VST screen. Are they finer than 2 micron?

Unfortunately I slept through chemistry so I don't understand the reactions going on, but there must be somewhere to turn to get answers. A nationwide fuel industry organization, Boat US, the aluminum industry, something else. I'll do the legwork if there are suggestions on where to turn.

Jeff

 

[Outta Here]

:lol:

I wonder if sodium sulfate is dissolved in water (some kind of salt, I think), passes thru filters and then crystalizes when heated and cooled by motor?

Lookin' up "Sodium Sulfate"...most common use is in paper manufacturing (processing pulp)...as in paper elements in filters?

I would think Yamaha's engineers are working as hard as possible to find answers so as to clear up ?'s and end expen$ive warranty claims.