Info on Halo Boat Pedestal Seat Shock/Suspension

[DaleH]

I can already see one of the weak links.

The neck. The part shown in the picture as having the rubber cover, that inserts into the seat. My guess is that there is a shaft that runs in that rubber cover. That shaft is what is going to get stressed every time the boat pitches. As your body and it's weight recovers and puts pressure on the back of the seat, that shaft is going to feel it. I'm no engineer but I'll bet the early failures will be with the shaft.

I inquired about that as I had concerns too, but whereas a similar component stand-ups to off-road use in an off-road vehicle, I'm not too worried. It is heat treated and shot peened to harden it and increase its ductility ... strong without being brittle.

 

[Megabyte]

Interesting devices, both the Halo and the SeaSuspension.
I think there is room in the market for both. 8)

 

[TheOtherLine]

Larry, please go back to the link above where I answered Jamie, and scroll down to the description by HaloLou, who was the engineer, within that thread for the engineering of the internals.

Specifically to address your concerns about the side loading of the inner tube, I excerpted that section as follows:

2. A high performance precision telescoping strength member (fig 1 middle) made of aluminum and hard coat anodized. This telescope consists of an outer tube with four longitudinal flats on the ID, and an inner tube with four corresponding longitudinal flats on the OD. Eight hardened steel races are in each of the grooves, to protect the aluminum from Brinnelling. Between the opposing races are bearings that allow the inner tube to move smoothly and longitudinally in relation to the outer tube. It is impossible for the inner tube to rotate in relation to the outer tube. However the seat can rotate as before. The ID of the inner tube is burnished to a single digit finish after hard coating. This high finish surface provides the smooth walled air chamber for the air spring, and which provides the opposing force when compressed. .

As you look towad the top of this thread where the picture of the internals are, the silver colored piece is the inner tube and is some kind of aircraft aluminum machined billet item, as are the rest of the parts, (don't know the spec number exactly), that has a wall thickness that is heavier than the Springfield seat tube which is soft. The pirmary side load is distributed the full length of the hardned strips (dark part against the silver tube, and again Lou told me what the Roclwell hardeness number was but I forget) and the roller bearing strips between those inner and the outer strips. This is a design that has proven itself in the extreme sports, racing mountain bike community where longitudinal and lateral shock forces often occur simultaniously and in extened duration.
These components are not stamped sheetmetal or zinc diecast pieces

As you indicated yourself, neither am I an engineer, but I am a technician, and from my experience with this unit, and having seen them taken apart and assembled, I am quite confident in its durability both internally and externally.
I am also quite sure that the integrity of the Seaspension folks and the people at FrankRothCo/Halo is similar, in that using proven technology, neither would build something that purposely would injurously break.

OK, very valid argument and I appreciate your explanation. Seems like the unit itself is well constructed.

 

[TheOtherLine]

Sounds like buyer’s remorse on the Seaspension :wink: Putting down a competitor’s product is typical of a used car salesman approach to sell a product that has no real merit but cost more. Obviously the longevity of the product is yet to be proven in this application but is not new technology.

One of the complications of communicating via emails or blogs is that, often times, it is very difficult to discern the writer’s tone. Collectively we try to clarify tone by using emphasized punctuation, symbols or those clever emoticons.

Unfortunately, sometimes it’s just obvious that the writer is just a jerk.

I have tried to hold my tongue and have done my best to temper conflicts between members and mods because I really like chatting with most of the guys on this site, buy you have managed to piss me off.

After reviewing several of your posts. It’s seems to be your M.O. I generally don’t respond to posts like yours but I feel compelled.

A) I didn't "put down" the competitors product. B) No buyer’s remorse here and here’s why;

1) Halo doesn’t have a product, they have a prototype. It has not been tested and has no history in a marine application. Nor am I aware of anyone else using bicycle technology to combat the harsh marine dynamics. Their "solution" is an unproven technology in its intended use.

2) You are installing this prototype into an inferior, mass produced pedestal. Even worse, a used mass produced pedestal. That’s right. Neither the stock Springfield or Garelick pedestals are designed to handle seated loads in rough water. When was the last time you SAT in your seat in rough waters prior to adding a shock mitigation system?? Most people don’t. They STAND. Post manufacturers know that and build for that purpose.


a. There have been 2 replies on this blog topic, one from DaleH and the other from HM5 where one admits to having sheared a stock pedestal and the other having a Springfield tube thickness with wall thickness being ‘softer’. Why would I want to risk my safety on the foundation of my shock mitigation system, THE SEAT POST ITSELF?

b. The Seaspension is purpose built for the harsh marine environment with double tubes, heavy base casting and a base to tube connection, which absorbs the lateral forces. They don’t make bicycle suspensions and, as an aside, marine systems.

c. While the HALO components might not be zinc or diecast, their use in a marine application remains to be seen. Additionally, the weak link IS where the stock tube connects to the base. The process of forming that tube (swaging) inherently puts the weakness right there.

3) Your own post states that the concept of using air dampeners is not new. There are many problems associated with air dampeners related to leaks and maintenance. I don’t have to adjust an “air” dampener before every trip. I bet you will. When militaries, from all over the world, look to buy shock mitigation systems, they don’t (haven’t) purchase systems with air dampeners. They buy the same technology that Seaspension is renowned for. Simple, proven technology.

4) The HALO prototype is dependent on you, their customer, to modify the existing pedestal. A pedestal which may have been exposed to weathering and corrosion, only to put loads on it for which it was not designed in the first place when new. Of course the first time someone breaks a pedestal which was self-modified and who then injures themselves, they’ll go running to a lawyer. What do you think HALO’s position is going to be?

a. Some people just don’t want to screw around with buying a pipe cutter, measuring etc. I highly doubt your install took 10 minutes. Mine did. 6 screws and it she was all done. Both you and Dale made references to all of the “adjustments” that needed to be made.
b. Seaspension design does not ALLOW for modifications. Theirs comes the way it’s supposed to…at delivery.

You stated that the Seaspension was too stiff. I can see where the Seaspension would be too stiff for you. At a buck sixty-five soaking wet, you probably wouldn’t have compressed any of the springs. However, had you asked, you would have learned that Seaspension offers various spring loads to accommodate most boaters.

Your reference to used car salesmen as "people who sell a product that has no real merit but costs more” is highly offensive and there might even be a few on this forum, either in or related to people in the auto sales industry, who would take exception to your holier than thou attitude.

Finally, as the FIRST words of my post indicated, I was not trying to bash anyone’s product. I made a single observation that I felt the product had a potential weak link and that buyers need to think about it. Much like I might tell someone to consider to think about the difference between an Avet reel and Penn Reel. Oh wait, the Avet has no real merit…it just costs more…..

I don’t have buyer’s remorse. I believe that generally, you get what you pay for. I believe that there is a market for both products. They found their market in you.

Having said what I had to say, you would NOW be correct to say I bashed their product!! :wink:

 

[DaleH]

1) Halo doesn’t have a product, they have a prototype. It has not been tested and has no history in a marine application. Nor am I aware of anyone else using bicycle technology to combat the harsh marine dynamics. Their "solution" is an unproven technology in its intended use.

As Capt Kevin said, there's ample room for 2 or more COMPETING designs in the market place. To your statement, you put a spin even on what you wrote. Halo markets suspension systems for off-road vehicles and ATVs, and not just mountain bikes. So please be fair and recognize that.

In addition, I'd say the off-road market where a vehicle can go twice as fast as a boat on a much harder medium is hardly 'unproven'. Most of the 'harsh' in the marine environment, IMHO, is usually reserved and/or caused by the deterious (sp?) effects of saltwater. Sure, offshore is tough and unforgiving, but it isn't the only world where technology can be tried and/or used.

2) ... Neither the stock Springfield or Garelick pedestals are designed to handle seated loads in rough water.

Can you prove that? Sounds like marketing hype for your unit. And neither company's seat warranty info says anything about "Do not sit in this seat in rough water", that I can find. Garelick simply says they're not indestructible. Springfield, on the other hand, lists the atypical statement from a lawyer that states verbatim: "Note: These products are not designed or warranted for racing, high performance, or commercial use." I would not equate 'rough water' with 'high performance', and neither should you. What they mean is don't use it in an 80mph Go Fast boat. Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, my Parker would only hit those speeds on the highway on it's trailer! And I sure wouldn't want to be driving or towing it .

2) ... When was the last time you SAT in your seat in rough waters prior to adding a shock mitigation system?? Most people don’t. They STAND. Post manufacturers know that and build for that purpose.

I sit ALL the time! I once even sheered off the bolts holding my lowly Springfield post to the floor! I did it in heavy seas whilst toona fishing in rough water. The Parker floor held, the Springfield seat base held, the Springfield seat post held ... all 1992 vintage (did this in 2005 or 2006) yet it was the 1/4"-20 304 series SS fasteners that failed. I have since upgraded them to 5/16" 316L fasteners.

Summary:
I'm glad you like your Seasuspension. I like my Halo unit. I'm glad you like your unit ! It is sorta sad you feel you need to retort to others, but I am glad you did so eloquently (less my responses to your own 'spin' on the situation and about the units).

I agree to disagree with some of your points, but I highly respect you, your posts, your position, and your right to your opinion.

Now if it wasn't for innovation ... we'd still be riding horses and rowing boats .

 

[MaxOut]

Glad I inspired you (theotherline) to get that off your chest as I could tell it was really bothering you. Your comments are still in line with my initial post. You seem to know allot about the Halo product although you have never even touched or ridden on one and you criticize purely on speculation. This unfounded speculation only hurts Halo. I would assume you have some related engineering background to base your concerns as do the people at Halo. You are correct that it is difficult to get a sense of someone’s tone through plain text. I am not going to call you names like you did me as your post speak clearly of your character and thinness of your skin. As I am sure most here know I am opinionated and so are many here. I feel everyone has the right to their own opinion and I can respect that. Sometime we all have to agree to disagree. I highly respect every form of gainful employment and you trying to twist a stereo type reference into a broad insult would only offend those who deserve it. My “used car salesman” reference was to a sales tactic used where you bash a competitor’s product to make yours look better when you have no merit as you have done and continue to do.

Thank you Dale for pointing out your observations of posts on this thread and you continue to make this a forum worth visiting. I will not be offended if you delete this post if you feel it is necessary.

I do need to clear the air on two points Dale did not reference-

1. I used a digital video camera to record the entire installation process and clipped pictures from it I posted here and you are right it did not take 10 min to install. It took 9 min and 32 seconds. Seaspension involves removing and re installing the entire base and footrest where the Halo involves lifting seat off measure cut and twist back on. In all fairness they probably could be done in similar amounts of time depending on how meticulous you are.

2. The military absolutely does use air suspension in many places including marine seat suspension. I have not needed to readjust my Halo due to leakage (more speculation without merit) but only to find the sweet spot for the weather conditions a feature not available on the Seaspension. Seaspension is not the only company making marine seat suspension for the military search “Shockwave” and there are many others.

 

[Mokee]

Gentlemen: CP has always been helpful to me. Hope this post matches that spirit.

Got the seat post installed last month. Use a bike seat based on similar principle and its comfortable - big fella here - 6'2 & #265. Easy install if you let 'em know correct ID of post (measured right/reported wrong - off 1/2"). I had to send original back for adjustment. Dave Mortensen was very helpful despite my error. Use vernier calipers.

Tested on the Illinois River in prep for trip to ICW - wakes from Snowbird oinks & wakeboard hulls not a good test. Then spent several days on Core Sound and the Nuese River near Beaufort, NC. The chop was spanking us on plane. Really liked the seat post. Don't plan on sending unit back. Had the unit pumped up to max pressure and it held up just fine.

We don't run inlets very often. Wanted something to add a little comfort in short chop (Great Lakes and ICW). Unit seems to fit the bill. We'll see on wear. Wish my Todd seat was bigger, but that's a different story.

Incidentally, heard that HaloLou has passed on.