Seat shock absorber opportunity

[HM5]

<<Edited>>
First of all I am in no way financially connected with this product. I stumbled onto this at a fishing show back in April and thought nit would have merit to my own Parker as well as others on this forum.

What I saw was a vendor selling a seat shock absorber that fit into the post and the seat fit over it. It was a brand new product that in fact I would be buying the 2nd off production. I immediately thought of the great discussions on C/P regarding another product with similar atributes, but a couple of things bother me about that item.

1 though it may be an excellent product, it is out of my price range for this type of item.

2 the changing of the entire post, and loosing the factory Springfield foot rest was another negative to me.

3 removing the factory seat post from the original bedding was not something I was fired up about either.

So since the price differential between this and the other unit intreged me, I was able to negotiate a reduced price. With unit in hand I went home to install this thing and try it out.

There were some bugs, like it didn't fit. The bottom stabilizing collar was to big. It was built for a Garlict seat post that is a thinner wall tubing. Well I went back to the show the next day and talked to the vendor. He explained that the company that made this unit did not know much about boats, but built small shock units for specialized applications. I had gone to their website, (http://www.halo-pi.com/), and saw that they built suspension components for racing quad runners, (I later found out they built the front fork and rear swing arm shocks for Cannondale racing mountain bikes).

I was still intreged and decided that it might just be worth a phone call Monday morning to see if they would modify the unit I bought to fit my Parker. "What's a Parker?" As indicated before they didn't know much about boats. But there was something in the conversation that worked and the guy I was talking to was the engineer who designed the product. They are located in Stratford, CT so UPS takes a day to deliver, and I had the unit back to install and seatrial.

I ran 15 miles down Narragansett Bay from home to Newport, RI and back. The marine forcast was wind WSW 15 to 20 waves 2 to 3 feet. Tide was coming in against the wind, so it was rough for a 25 foot 7k lbs. boat. I had the seat shock installed on the starboard seat post. Tried to maintain 18 to 22 kts. When launching off the wave tops of some waves and the hull hit hard, (signified with the splash of water over the top of the pilot house ), the shock would bottom out hard. Light waves, the shock was very pleasant and gave good absorbsion characteristics. So there were some adjustemts to the valving that had to be made, and they were very receptive.

While doing all of this, the engineer was redesigning the unit to make it more universally installable, and provide adjustment to compensate for weight or sea conditions. He came out to Warwick, to deliver the 2nd generation unit and go for the seatrial himself. He felt is was like night and day between the seat shock and without, but there were some areas that we felt still needed improvement. Again, this outfit is very receptive to input.

So here is what their program is. They are proposing to provide the shock absorbers to 5 test people for a flat fee of $190.00. These five would get to keep the units for that low price in exchange for information from you on how the shock units perform (for 3-4 months).
They would make sure that all bugs that crop up would be made right. They will refund your money if you decide not to keep them and return the units to Halo. It is necessary to cut some of the seat post to maintain the correct seat height. Using a 3 inch diameter Rigid pipe cutter, I had to take off about 3 and a half inches. If you are reluctant to cut down your seat post pedestal before they try the unit, perhaps you can try it without cutting the pedestal for a short period of time. When you decide to keep it, you can then cut down the pedestal.

A high pressure air pump, (250-300psi), is required to adjust the sensitivity. An additional charge of $40.00 would be added to the $190.00 if you want a pump with gage. They will refund the entire $230.00 if you want to return the units. All test subjects would be in direct contact with the engineer.

For further information and to get on the list for testing you will need to contact Lou Toffolo at [email protected]

I have checked in with Dale before posting this and he hass indicated interest in this unit himself, so contact Lou if you want to get in on this.

Below is a picture of this unit installed in my seat post. I have some more of the unit out of the post, but they are on my cell phone camera and I need to get a special USB cable to download them into this computer. I will edit this when I get them.

I have found this to be a great improvement in ride quality, ease of installation and at a very competitive price.

Please understand that I do not wish to demean the other product or those who have purchased it. This is an alternative that you may find fits your wallet.

 

[Bryan 2530]

How far down the post does the shock go???

My helmchair is mounted on top of a storage box with very little post sticking up, wondering if it would work for me.

Similiar to this although this is not my boat.

 

[TheOtherLine]

As you know, I am a BIG proponent of the Seaspension product and, had your discovery been around when I was looking for a solution, I probably would have bought it.

Sounds like you found a workable solution for less money. What's wrong with that?

I think it's fantastic that the company is willing to work with you to get it right.

I will suggest this however, engineering alone does not replace the knowledge base required to produce a product that works in a boating application. Just be careful. It IS your vertebrae and once you injure that, there is no fixing it.

I hope Peter from Seaspension sees this post and offers his thoughts. It may be hard for him to do so without it appearing that he is "knocking" the other product but I, for one, would really like to know what he thinks of the design.

Good Luck and keep us updated.

 

[greatcir]

Couple of comments on the SeaSpension installation on my 2007 2120. I too have no financial connection to any marine vendors.

1. The Springfield foot rest just needed two new plastic bushings to fit the larger diameter SeaSuspension post and it works fine. see:
http://www.springfieldgrp.com/Swivel_Footrest.htm

2. It was a 5 minute job to remove the bolts in the floor and reinstall them on the new SeaSuspension post as the holes were perfectly matched on my boat.

No question the price is much better on your new find. Hope we all get reports from the 5 testers to how the seat shock absorber holds up, if there are any air pressure problems, etc.

So far, I and others with the SeaSuspensions have had no issues except that some wanted the color to match the boat with the high quality paint job already on the post. I also found SeaSuspenion products being used on military vessels and all made to high military quality standards, but still pricey for we recreational boaters. And I found SeaSuspension folks to also be very friendly and flexible. My spine has said thank you many times since I mounted the shock absorber.

Keep us tuned in................Pete

 

[MaxOut]

I want to try it.... I will e-mail if it's not too late. Thanks. Sounds like a more down to earth price than the Seaspension (no offense just seems like allot for what it is). Any shock absorber has the potential of loosing its charge but not likely with quality components. Halo is known for building top notch suspension components for racing quads and they receive more abuse in one race than a seat shock will in a lifetime. Keep in mind the seat shock is only working when you are sitting on it and has almost no constant static load like a 4 wheeler. If I am able to get one I will put it through its paces and report back. Thank You Mathew. :wink:

 

[HM5]

How far down the post does the shock go???

My helmchair is mounted on top of a storage box with very little post sticking up, wondering if it would work for me.

The unit requires 7 5/8 down the tube, and raises the static seat height (unloaded) about 3 1/4 to 3 1/2 inches.

Hope this helps you, Bryan

 

[Bryan 2530]

Can you post a pic of the whole unit out of the post?

I emailed but no response yet.

 

[TheOtherLine]

Any shock absorber has the potential of loosing its charge but not likely with quality components.

Is it possible that it's the reason why the Seaspension product has not only a shock absorber but also a spring loaded coil? I'm not an engineer, but what you say makes sense. :?:

 

[HM5]

TOL, I got a new camera phone and need to get the mini USB cable to attach to this laptop. Will try to post Tuesday on day off. Will also try to get Lou to e-mail me one.

 

[MaxOut]

Any shock absorber has the potential of loosing its charge but not likely with quality components.

Is it possible that it's the reason why the Seaspension product has not only a shock absorber but also a spring loaded coil? I'm not an engineer, but what you say makes sense. :?:

I think you would make a good test subject for Halo since you already have a competitor’s product for comparison. Not sure of your boats configuration but if you have two helms chairs you could mount one beside the other and compare? Even though you would only intend on using it for testing I for one would like a side by side comparison? Halo could benefit from your input. I have ridden on a Seaspension post mounted on a 35’ Sonic and was impressed but the Sonic was a decent riding boat to begin with compared to my 25’ forward cabin Parker. My needs are to help in extreme conditions where I can’t stand easily. I generally prefer to stand and when possible navigate from the rear helm as the ride there is waaaaaaaay better in rough seas.

 

[Peter's Post]

Without having seen this new shock post, I am a little at a disadvantage to comment inteligently, but I will address some issues mentioned.
The need of a coil-over spring is 2 fold: to help absorb the compressed load, and also to bring the seat back to the uncompressed position.
An airbag is like a spring. If this unit does not have a damper, than all it is is a pogo stick. Look at any truck seat, and you'l see a damper with an airbag. Similarly, when you look at an air-suspended truck cab, youll see an airbag with a damper at the rear of the cab. Does this thing have both an airbag and a damper??

I am intimatly familiar with trying to bring a new product to market, and we too had offered our Seaspension unit at a much lower price way back when around 2002. Obviously things got more expensive over the years. We also realized that the lower price point cannot be maintained if you intend to support the unit over the years after you sell the first one. It seems, however a reasonable price (for them) if you are willing to be a guinnea pig for someone elses product development. As was mentioned before, how do you measure the value of a healty spine, vs. subjecting it to bottoming out events constantly? What happens when something else goes wrong, like a seperation of the seat from the post after coming off a 3-4' wave?
We used our own (my) bodies to test our product, and trashed a boat doing it, in order to get the feedback we needed. This company obviously is focusing on using what may be unreliable feedback from recreational boaters to develop their product (no disrespect intended). What you may get is an end product that may reflect that. It is no accident that there are not that many suspension experts in the marine industry, as even the military is still searching for a set of rules and guidelines that can be used to measure the effectiveness of a particular product.
Please keep us 'posted' on this product, and I would also like to ask anyone who has purchased one, to get in touch with us. Obviously we'd like to keep abreast of any new developments. Thanks.

 

[DaleH]

Competiton is inherent in the spirit of innovation, product enhancements, value for the dollar and good ol' capitalism.

Let's all refrain from any A versus B arguements unless factually based. I for one would consider a less costly suspension device knowing full well I could have purchased a well-engineered mil-spec (though that term still SCARES me :shock: from my years in the gas turbine bizness!) Mercedes/BMW-class device instead of a usable, functional-within-its-design-limits, Ford/Chevy-class device at 1/3rd the price.

Realistically ... some of us, myself included, cannot afford to always buy the higher-end products.

 

[greatcir]

I may have missed it, but looks like the final retail price on the new air unit will be determined after the trial period but the five researchers have a guaranteed price that is refundable? Or will any redesign still be $190?..................Pete

 

[HM5]

As I understand it, the test subjects will get any improvements during the test period.

I have been out in some pretty rough stuff and beat to stuffings out of my boat probably much harder than I would have had I not had the unit installed. I think that at 61 years old I have beaten myself up quite well over the years with different boats in different conditions on different types of water. From Lake Erie storms, sudden Nor'Westers outside of Egmont Key, hard Sou'Easters outside of Berlin Inlet, to 6' rollers with a South Eastern wind chop at the bay entrance to Narragansett Bay, and although my test period has been only been 4 months, this unit provides me the cushion for that sudden sharp pounding drop that I can then make the decision to stay seated or to stand at the helm.

The ferry I work on has Sea Post seats at the helm with no shock mitigaton save but the cushion my butt is attached to. For the price of these units, one would think that there should better shock mitigation.

All I can say is that a Parker pilothouse or W/A would be a great testbed for this type of product. That is why I suggested to Lou that he go here to the folks who know their boat and are technically proficient enough to provide feedback to development.

 

[HaloLou]

DESCRIPTION OF HALO BOAT SEAT SHOCK ABSORBER
Lou Toffolo

Thank you for allowing me to clarify some of the questions discussed on your site. I thought that most could be addressed by describing the shock absorber that we are offering for 5 test trials. The unit is a high precision shock absorber comprised of a telescoping strength member, an oil damper, an air rebound spring, and a means of attaching the unit firmly to the seat post pedestal. It is 13.5” long and min diameter of 2.5”. We manufacture and assemble all parts in Stratford, CT. A brief description follows:

1. The hydraulic oil damper (fig 1 top) is a precision shock absorber with tuned performance. It is designed to react uniquely to seat vibration of various magnitudes. As the seat compresses, a piston is forced through oil at a rate relative to the force encountered. Small bumps move the piston slightly. Large bumps force the piston to move faster and farther.

Hydraulic oil dampers typically work with springs to absorb energy and resist movement. Typical, dampers use either coil springs or air springs. We use an air spring for two reasons:
• It is easy to adjust for different weight people by adjusting pressure. There is no need to change out the coil spring.
• The air spring is progressive meaning it will dramatically increase resistance the further the seat travels preventing a mechanical bottoming out.

2. A high performance precision telescoping strength member (fig 1 middle) made of aluminum and hard coat anodized. This telescope consists of an outer tube with four longitudinal flats on the ID, and an inner tube with four corresponding longitudinal flats on the OD. Eight hardened steel races are in each of the grooves, to protect the aluminum from Brinnelling. Between the opposing races are bearings that allow the inner tube to move smoothly and longitudinally in relation to the outer tube. It is impossible for the inner tube to rotate in relation to the outer tube. However the seat can rotate as before. The ID of the inner tube is burnished to a single digit finish after hard coating. This high finish surface provides the smooth walled air chamber for the air spring, and which provides the opposing force when compressed. .

3. A means to attach the shock absorber to varying seat post pedestal ID’s (fig 1 bottom) and provide a strong, rigid, gripping force for the entire length of the shock absorber. This is done with two concentric cylinders; the inner one when rotated expands the outer one which grips the pedestal firmly and prevents movement. A cap rests on the top of the seat pedestal tube and prevents downward movement.

A very similar shock absorber described above, without the means for attachment, has been in production by us and used in high performance mountain bikes for over 15 years. These shock absorbers are subject to severe loads and are extremely durable.

Special pricing for these five trial shock absorbers is $190.00 plus $40.00 for an air pump with gage. We will correct any problem encountered and if unhappy with the results, reimburse the entire amount when the unit is returned. It is our intention when we start to sell (on www.halo-pi.com) to price them at $290.00 plus $40.00 for air pump w/gage.

At HALO, advanced suspension systems are what we do. HALO designs, develops and manufactures high-performance suspension system products for various markets including racing ATV’s.

 

[TheOtherLine]

Looks pretty slick to me!! If it works, it's a steal, as I paid more than 2 times that price.

So, DOES or DOES NOT this unit fit into the stock tube? ( Good God, does that question sound like Yoda speak or what? )

...my point being, if it's $290 plus air pump, plus new post, plus, plus, ...then the difference begins to narrow (and I don't feel like such a schmuck).

 

[HM5]

Looks pretty slick to me!! If it works, it's a steal, as I paid more than 2 times that price.

So, DOES or DOES NOT this unit fit into the stock tube? ( Good God, does that question sound like Yoda speak or what? )

...my point being, if it's $290 plus air pump, plus new post, plus, plus, ...then the difference begins to narrow (and I don't feel like such a schmuck).

This unit slides into the stock factory seat post tube. By turning the unit, internat beveled surfaces of the of the long locking mechanism, lock the unit into the tube. Then the upper threaded ring locks down onto the top of the tube which further locks it into the tube. If an owner has 2 seat posts as a pilothouse or 4 like a walkaround, they would only require one pump to service the units, therefore controling the cost.

 

[MaxOut]

Any shock absorber has the potential of loosing its charge but not likely with quality components.

Is it possible that it's the reason why the Seaspension product has not only a shock absorber but also a spring loaded coil? I'm not an engineer, but what you say makes sense. :?:

I prefer an air spring to a steel coil because it does not soften over time and is easy to adjust for the perfect ride. The progressive nature of an air shock also makes it less likely to bottom out. That combined with the oil damper should provide a smooth ride. I also like using the stock aluminum polished tube keeping the footrest and stock look. The only thing better would be if the footrest moved in sync with the seat. I always wondered how the Seaspension post would work for me as I only weigh 160lbs compared specs up to 250lb. That’s another reason I am more interested in an adjustable post as I can set it to desired ride and seas. I am looking forward to getting the Halo and trying it out. @ A no risk trial price of $190.00 plus $40.00 for the pump $230.00 is a really good deal. This price point will be more marketable to OEM’s as a factory option and easy to add on at the dealer. As you can see in the pictures it looks like a high quallity product. Looks like Halo may have a winner. Hopefully I will be able to report performance of the Halo soon!