2300 - FWD Locker Thru Hull Replacement - Difficult?

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gman1001

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Both of my thru hull plastic fittings are cracked on my 2300DV They drain the two fwd seat lockers in the front of my boat. I don't store anything wet in the lockers and the thru hulls are way above water line but thought I'd replace/fix this winter.

Is this a tricky job? Any tips on getting access to them from inside the boat?

IMG_0906.jpeg
 
Following this one as I want to replace any factory they hulls before they fail too. Hope someone can share their experience
 
Put some nice Groco bronze fittings in there with 5200. Bronze, not brass. Forever done for like 40 bucks.
I installed an overboard drain in the anchor locker of my 2320.
 
Put some nice Groco bronze fittings in there with 5200. Bronze, not brass. Forever done for like 40 bucks.
I installed an overboard drain in the anchor locker of my 2320.
Since they’re above the waterline, I’d opt for polished stainless rather than bronze. It won’t get green and will look good forever. Gemlux is a good supplier of high quality 316SS fittings.
 
QUOTE="pelagic2530, post: 160585, member: 498"]
Since they’re above the waterline, I’d opt for polished stainless rather than bronze. It won’t get green and will look good forever. Gemlux is a good supplier of high quality 316SS fittings.
[/QUOTE]
I can dig that too. I just really like green bronze. I just took this picture. I'll take green bronze over rust like I just noticed on my bow eye. I'll have to pull and rebed that soon.
 

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What Pelagic said.... AND Do NOT use 5200 ! Use 4200.
I'll take green bronze over rust like I just noticed on my bow eye.
Put the Bow eye on your list to Replace then also. 316 Stainless is the key. Your's is cheaper Stainless..... Probelly 304 series.
 
What Pelagic said.... AND Do NOT use 5200 ! Use 4200.

Put the Bow eye on your list to Replace then also. 316 Stainless is the key. Your's is cheaper Stainless..... Probelly 304 series.
I really don't get you guys and 5200. I am no pro, but 5200 is meant for permanent applications. It does not MAKE it permanent. A wrench and debond and 5200 is off. My God, even Gemlux recommended 5200.
My could be 316 stainless but not properly bedded allowing for crevice corrosion.
5200 is to be used where it is part of the mounting system and not just sealant. Like T-top and leaning post feet. Birdsall recommended 5200 when I installed a leaning post on my Seapro.

It's not the Boogeyman. Just use if for it's intended purpose. Like bow eyes and non-plastic below waterline through hulls.

 
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I really don't get you guys and 5200. I am no pro, but 5200 is meant for permanent applications. It does not MAKE it permanent. A wrench and debond and 5200 is off. My God, even Gemlux recommended 5200.
My could be 316 stainless but not properly bedded allowing for crevice corrosion.
5200 is to be used where it is part of the mounting system and not just sealant. Like T-top and leaning post feet. Birdsall recommended 5200 when I installed a leaning post on my Seapro.

It's not the Boogeyman. Just use if for it's intended purpose. Like bow eyes and non-plastic below waterline through hulls.


I don’t disagree with you, use it if you feel like it. I just don’t consider it necessary for the majority of fittings.

Lots of manufacturers recommend it due to the “lowest common denominator” factor. Even if an amateur installation isn’t perfect… if you put enough of that goop on there, it ain’t going anywhere, at least for awhile.

If you go based off the actual properties of the product, vs the nature of the installation, you’ll find that there’s very few cases where using a strong adhesive offers much benefit over a good sealant.

But if it works for you, it works for you. Just don’t put it on hose barbs.
 
Hi - just a few comments from engineering perspective;

In this case of simple seat bench box gravity drain, the choice of fitting material or any fitting at all is almost 100% aesthetic and personal preference. In many sail boats these type drains are just clean thru holes with no fittings at all. My guess is that Parker selected white plastic because it looks fine, low cost, unobtrusive, lightweight and does not really discolor if the right grade. Downside to plastic is that it is not as strong as metal and gets brittle from prolonged exposure to UV and thermal cycling. Hence yours are cracked. Again given relative weakness of plastic it could also be impact at a dock or something. I could riff on about sst vs bronze etc. but more personal.

For adhesive sealant etc. and main question posed; make distinction between the purpose: structure vs seal.

In case of plastic, you really only have mild structural requirement necessary to hold the fitting in place. No seal is needed.

In the case of sst or bronze, structural requirement goes up a little bit not a lot and now seal becomes needed to avoid long term exposure to salt water which is corrosive.

So gasket is out in this case unless there is some mechanical fastener or u r going to glue the gasket in on both sides which is counterproductive.

Adhesive is great solution if u choose bronze or sst. It will provide the structure and water seal. The main st important thing by far is adhesion between the part and the hull, rather than the "strength of the adhesive it self".

The loads are probably a few pounds max., essentially the inertial weight of a fitting being jerked around at sea. Sealing and corrosion prevention is much more important. In that case you want to choose something that will really bond and seal to both materials, is clear or not going to look sloppy and has some give to it (as opposed to being very rigid and brittle). Adhesion is best when the adhesive "whets" which is like the difference between a drop of water on a well waxed car, it beads up and rolls off and there essentially is no whetting at all. Conversely think of ink on paper very high wetting.

One of the main features of 5200 is that they chemically cure with moisture, like cement or underwater pool epoxy. It's chemistry designed to get good whetting on many common marine materials and surfaces, like gel coat fiberglass hull and metals. It's also made by 3M who definitely knows what they are doing and have reliable quality assurance and test information. See data sheet here.
Technical Data Sheet | 3M

It cures flexible and comes in white. You can see in the tables the strength: some 252-352 psi for bronze that means that if the surface area u r gluing is small say just the edge perimeter of a fitting say 1/10 in 2. Then you could hold 25 pounds. Probably 10-100 or more times your requirement. Therefore what becomes key is surface prep and material selection. Notice two things: Do not use alcohol it messes with the moisture curing. DO use 200 to 400 grit to clean and roughen the surfaces. 5200 does tend to be messy and you need to make sure you get a good volume bead and probably ideally suited for things like they hull transducer, could be considered overkill for a plastic port install, but who cares?

So 5200 is like the Cadillac solution. There are probably 50 other solutions.

Clear silicone is probably better in most regards except maybe strength. Silicone "whets" better than almost any other adhesive. Ever notice how sticky it is?
It also is super rubbery and therefore seals really well, which in this case is the main goal.

So these issues sort of come down much more to personal choices and attitudes vs technical engineering applications.

If money is no issue and or u have a tube of 5200 and u don't care to spending time considering things like this, then use it and forget about it.

As for me, I do stuff like this for a living, and every case is a learning experience for the next etc.

I'd probably use whatever I thought will work and I have lying around.

Generally selection of fitting depends for me on an understanding of the OEM and if u think they chose the right solution at the factory. Cost almost always is more important to a manufacturer and so in many cases when we replace stuff we do a proper upgrade. But that is not always the case. I drive older Mercedes, and 99% of the time, the best approach is to replace with whatever the German engineers did in the first place. Same holds in vessels. My friends Viking has almost 100% polished sst fittings. In that case I'd just replace what was there.

If you're into restoring exact factory then get white plastic and silicone it in.

If u want viking style then get a $72 sst fitting hand made in Italy and bolt it or screw it in with a custom cut 3/32 inch thick viton gasket.

If u want reliability, just clean up the hole and have no fitting ( I've had about 3 sunfish sailboats, which are like Volkswagen beetle designed for ultra simplicity and longevity, why use a port part that really adds no functional benefit at all?

Bronze is "cool" but it's primary benefit over sst is cost but not that much and it obviously does not rust, but it sheds green. Bronze was used before SST became available. That can be cool on the side of a brick building or on an old wood 4master like the USS Constitution, mostly because it matches all the other fittings.

Parker mostly uses SST, so bronze does not match 2300DV (I don't own one but my friend does, so do not strike me down if I am wrong) but can be necessary like with some thru hull transducer that only comes in that material.

If u take away anything it should be that good surface prep is number one when doing any adhering job.

LMK, but that's about my 2 cents on a boring rainy sunday
 
I don't live on a saltwater port, but while bronze does turn green or patina, I have never noticed it streaking. NOT trying to sell it at all, but any doubts look at your high speed pickup and through hull transducers. They turn green, but don't really "streak" green. I have a trailered boat, and my anchor locker drain dribbles overboard constantly as rainwater and rode water runs out. No streak, (and total overkill I understand). I went with bronze because I knew the other end (inside the anchor locker) could possibly end up submerged in mud or water for long periods.

All of the stainless through-hulls on our boat are plastic with a (glued-on?) stainless cap, which I suppose is ideal for those applications of the livewell, fishbox and bilge pumps, none of which should be able to sink the boat in the event of failure.

Mbaltay is spot on in that Parker and most others chooses hardware with cost being one factor as long as it meets requirements.
I encountered the garboard drain doing this odd cross thread thing, even though my boat is a '19. Come to find out, Parker used a yellow brass fitting vs actual bronze. The fitting dezincified and ended up pink as the copper became more apparent from the zinc wastage. The metal was clearly leaving the fitting. Sorry for the sidetrack. Here is a quick read if anyone cares to check it out, with the metal analysis of my fittings, old vs the new Groco pieces.

Thread 'Buy good hardware! Garboard drain '19 2320' Buy good hardware! Garboard drain '19 2320
 
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Hi - just a few comments from engineering perspective;

In this case of simple seat bench box gravity drain, the choice of fitting material or any fitting at all is almost 100% aesthetic and personal preference. In many sail boats these type drains are just clean thru holes with no fittings at all. My guess is that Parker selected white plastic because it looks fine, low cost, unobtrusive, lightweight and does not really discolor if the right grade. Downside to plastic is that it is not as strong as metal and gets brittle from prolonged exposure to UV and thermal cycling. Hence yours are cracked. Again given relative weakness of plastic it could also be impact at a dock or something. I could riff on about sst vs bronze etc. but more personal.

For adhesive sealant etc. and main question posed; make distinction between the purpose: structure vs seal.

In case of plastic, you really only have mild structural requirement necessary to hold the fitting in place. No seal is needed.

In the case of sst or bronze, structural requirement goes up a little bit not a lot and now seal becomes needed to avoid long term exposure to salt water which is corrosive.

So gasket is out in this case unless there is some mechanical fastener or u r going to glue the gasket in on both sides which is counterproductive.

Adhesive is great solution if u choose bronze or sst. It will provide the structure and water seal. The main st important thing by far is adhesion between the part and the hull, rather than the "strength of the adhesive it self".

The loads are probably a few pounds max., essentially the inertial weight of a fitting being jerked around at sea. Sealing and corrosion prevention is much more important. In that case you want to choose something that will really bond and seal to both materials, is clear or not going to look sloppy and has some give to it (as opposed to being very rigid and brittle). Adhesion is best when the adhesive "whets" which is like the difference between a drop of water on a well waxed car, it beads up and rolls off and there essentially is no whetting at all. Conversely think of ink on paper very high wetting.

One of the main features of 5200 is that they chemically cure with moisture, like cement or underwater pool epoxy. It's chemistry designed to get good whetting on many common marine materials and surfaces, like gel coat fiberglass hull and metals. It's also made by 3M who definitely knows what they are doing and have reliable quality assurance and test information. See data sheet here.
Technical Data Sheet | 3M

It cures flexible and comes in white. You can see in the tables the strength: some 252-352 psi for bronze that means that if the surface area u r gluing is small say just the edge perimeter of a fitting say 1/10 in 2. Then you could hold 25 pounds. Probably 10-100 or more times your requirement. Therefore what becomes key is surface prep and material selection. Notice two things: Do not use alcohol it messes with the moisture curing. DO use 200 to 400 grit to clean and roughen the surfaces. 5200 does tend to be messy and you need to make sure you get a good volume bead and probably ideally suited for things like they hull transducer, could be considered overkill for a plastic port install, but who cares?

So 5200 is like the Cadillac solution. There are probably 50 other solutions.

Clear silicone is probably better in most regards except maybe strength. Silicone "whets" better than almost any other adhesive. Ever notice how sticky it is?
It also is super rubbery and therefore seals really well, which in this case is the main goal.

So these issues sort of come down much more to personal choices and attitudes vs technical engineering applications.

If money is no issue and or u have a tube of 5200 and u don't care to spending time considering things like this, then use it and forget about it.

As for me, I do stuff like this for a living, and every case is a learning experience for the next etc.

I'd probably use whatever I thought will work and I have lying around.

Generally selection of fitting depends for me on an understanding of the OEM and if u think they chose the right solution at the factory. Cost almost always is more important to a manufacturer and so in many cases when we replace stuff we do a proper upgrade. But that is not always the case. I drive older Mercedes, and 99% of the time, the best approach is to replace with whatever the German engineers did in the first place. Same holds in vessels. My friends Viking has almost 100% polished sst fittings. In that case I'd just replace what was there.

If you're into restoring exact factory then get white plastic and silicone it in.

If u want viking style then get a $72 sst fitting hand made in Italy and bolt it or screw it in with a custom cut 3/32 inch thick viton gasket.

If u want reliability, just clean up the hole and have no fitting ( I've had about 3 sunfish sailboats, which are like Volkswagen beetle designed for ultra simplicity and longevity, why use a port part that really adds no functional benefit at all?

Bronze is "cool" but it's primary benefit over sst is cost but not that much and it obviously does not rust, but it sheds green. Bronze was used before SST became available. That can be cool on the side of a brick building or on an old wood 4master like the USS Constitution, mostly because it matches all the other fittings.

Parker mostly uses SST, so bronze does not match 2300DV (I don't own one but my friend does, so do not strike me down if I am wrong) but can be necessary like with some thru hull transducer that only comes in that material.

If u take away anything it should be that good surface prep is number one when doing any adhering job.

LMK, but that's about my 2 cents on a boring rainy sunday
Just a couple comments, as usual you make a lot of good points.

-I may be wrong, but I believe that the boxes in this case do not drain directly through the side of the hull, but through a bottom drain connected to a thru-hull by a hose. Therefore, a normal barbed, threaded through hull fitting is required, and there will also be added load on the inside from supporting the hose. So it’s not just an aesthetic decision, the fitting is required to make the drain arrangement function.

-Since the fitting is, by necessity, secured to the hull by the nut on the threaded shaft, an adhesive really offers no benefit over a sealant. You’re not trying to glue the fitting into the hull, you’re simply preventing water intrusion around the fitting. The fitting is mechanically fastened to the hull.

-While 5200 is an effective product and offers a great bonding strength, it’s no more effective as a sealant than many other products. Lots of other products on the market offer more modern chemical properties (5200 was developed in the 70s as an aerospace adhesive) that give them better handling, storage, and cure time properties. 5200 is great in the very narrow range of applications where you primarily want to glue something to something else, and secondarily provide a seal- for any other range of applications, there’s probably a better product out there.

-In 99% of boating applications, silicone or silicone based products are the LAST thing you should use. This is due to the fact that once silicone cures, NOTHING will stick to it, including new silicone. So if you have something sealed with silicone, and you need to remove and replace that thing, you will need to mechanically clean those surfaces to the point where there are no traces of silicone left, which pretty much means grinding or sanding the surfaces down. Otherwise, you’ll have an imperfect bond that will lead to water intrusion or premature failure. Other sealants don’t have this chemical sensitivity, and are therefore much more forgiving when forming new bonds over traces of old sealant (obviously, all sealing surfaces should be as clean as possible before applying new sealant).

-There’s no good reason to go through the work involved in replacing this fitting just to put another plastic one in its place. The cost difference to upgrade to a stainless fitting that will last forever is very minimal in comparison to your time and effort to get in there and replace it. Just ensure that you get a good bedding of sealant on the exterior sealing surface so that no water can get in behind the fitting, and you’ll have a permanent installation that will look good forever and never need to be replaced again.
 
about me- Thanks for clarification and info about silicone in marine. I do not own a boat myself, just prefer to ride on family and friends, I'm called naive in nautical circles sometimes... others call me smart... I love fishing. I just got to this forum randomly when I was helping my buddy with his DV2300 electronics upgrade. I just like trying to help out with fundamental engineering because I see way too many debates in online forums where there is always a trade-off between common practical experience, emotion, back and forth and lack of underlying objective engineering. I do it on mercedes, honda, tractors and air conditioning amongst others purely for fun and because I like learning (like in this case your comments about silicone). I'm also cost conscious, not because I cant afford stuff, rather I just despise overpaying for shit (often in marine or any specvialty hardware and equipment) but in other places thats 5x the actual needed cost, and often lower quality than a proper engineered solution that is better than OEM where they cost cut. I also like doing this stuff. Other people just want the job done, prefer to pay to not spend time on problems and want to trust experts without having to learn. - its all great and very personal but should not be criticized either way. Most on-line debates I see are really about these deeper philosophical preferences and not really about the exact solution.

about your fitting- I'm guessing that fitting is accessible via one of the deck ports, but you haven't said. From what I could see it is below deck level, so it all rests on accessibility. If u can get in there, then just use a bulkhead fitting with two washers or gaskets or whatever seems to be packaged with a really expensive marine fitting. Worst case can always refit it. If access is very tough but doable, then I'd favor some sort of adhesive to avoid it loosening up. Choice between good gasket material vs decent adhesive/ sealant would be a toss up inMHO, again depending upon accessibility. I see standard butyl rubber washers mostly in ocations with easy access since qwe all know what happens to that. In case of difficult one time access then SST or bronze depending on price and match to exact fit up diameter of hole and barb, etc. and aesthetic pref. I have no idea if that can draw water in and if there is a ball valve or one way diaphram in the line etc, and if so and access is tough then hydraulic integrity and clamp on barb hose integrity becomes much more important, goes without saying.

I'll sign out on this one. Good luck feel free anytime to PM or ask and I'll give my 2 cents. I am curious to know how accessible thatt hing is, since I'm going to help my bud open up his deck to pull tank because he says its leaking... best
 
I'm also very curious to hear any details on accessibility for this project. I have the same boat and can't imagine getting to that fitting without cutting a hole for a new hatch/pie plate somewhere.
 
I'm also very curious to hear any details on accessibility for this project. I have the same boat and can't imagine getting to that fitting without cutting a hole for a new hatch/pie plate somewhere.
This is the core of why I posted this question!

I have deck plate access just aft of each fwd bench seat. Have yet to crack one open to see i have access to the plumbing. If not - the project really can’t be done.
 
This is the core of why I posted this question!

I have deck plate access just aft of each fwd bench seat. Have yet to crack one open to see i have access to the plumbing. If not - the project really can’t be done.
I’m gonna bet this is your access. There has to be one- there’s simply no way for them to have pre-built this connection before the hull and deck cap were joined.
 
about me- Thanks for clarification and info about silicone in marine. I do not own a boat myself, just prefer to ride on family and friends, I'm called naive in nautical circles sometimes... others call me smart... I love fishing. I just got to this forum randomly when I was helping my buddy with his DV2300 electronics upgrade. I just like trying to help out with fundamental engineering because I see way too many debates in online forums where there is always a trade-off between common practical experience, emotion, back and forth and lack of underlying objective engineering. I do it on mercedes, honda, tractors and air conditioning amongst others purely for fun and because I like learning (like in this case your comments about silicone). I'm also cost conscious, not because I cant afford stuff, rather I just despise overpaying for shit (often in marine or any specvialty hardware and equipment) but in other places thats 5x the actual needed cost, and often lower quality than a proper engineered solution that is better than OEM where they cost cut. I also like doing this stuff. Other people just want the job done, prefer to pay to not spend time on problems and want to trust experts without having to learn. - its all great and very personal but should not be criticized either way. Most on-line debates I see are really about these deeper philosophical preferences and not really about the exact solution.

about your fitting- I'm guessing that fitting is accessible via one of the deck ports, but you haven't said. From what I could see it is below deck level, so it all rests on accessibility. If u can get in there, then just use a bulkhead fitting with two washers or gaskets or whatever seems to be packaged with a really expensive marine fitting. Worst case can always refit it. If access is very tough but doable, then I'd favor some sort of adhesive to avoid it loosening up. Choice between good gasket material vs decent adhesive/ sealant would be a toss up inMHO, again depending upon accessibility. I see standard butyl rubber washers mostly in ocations with easy access since qwe all know what happens to that. In case of difficult one time access then SST or bronze depending on price and match to exact fit up diameter of hole and barb, etc. and aesthetic pref. I have no idea if that can draw water in and if there is a ball valve or one way diaphram in the line etc, and if so and access is tough then hydraulic integrity and clamp on barb hose integrity becomes much more important, goes without saying.

I'll sign out on this one. Good luck feel free anytime to PM or ask and I'll give my 2 cents. I am curious to know how accessible thatt hing is, since I'm going to help my bud open up his deck to pull tank because he says its leaking... best
@mbaltay, hopefully I didn’t come across as critical or condescending, that wasn’t my intent. Your engineering perspective on this and other topics is truly impressive. I just meant to clarify a few things that are likely pertinent to this specific installation.
 
@mbaltay, hopefully I didn’t come across as critical or condescending, that wasn’t my intent. Your engineering perspective on this and other topics is truly impressive. I just meant to clarify a few things that are likely pertinent to this specific installation.
No not in the least.
 
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