Problem with Transducer Install (need help)

[Billy V]

Here is the situation:

I had a local Boat Yard install a B164/ 20deg. on my 2310 Parker DV. Its connected to a Furuno 587.
The unit completely looses the bottom when traveling above 12 mph. I could only attribute this to air bubbles/disturbed water passing over the transducer face. There is a chine several feet forward of the transducer 3 ft. or so. The yard didn't think this would be a problem.

I am attaching several Pics of the install.

I would like ANYONE who has done a Successful Installation of this type of 1KW transducer on a 21 deg Deep Vee to share the mounting location.

My cruise speed is 24-25 mph. Please advise and comment with your experiences.
-I want to correct the situation which will require another haul out, and more costly work - but I want a successful outcome.

Thanks
Billy

 

[DaleH]

... the yard didn't think this would be a problem.

I want to correct the situation which will require another haul out, and more costly work - but I want a successful outcome.

I personally think it should be their problem, unless you told them precisely where to put it.

But, have you contacted Furuno at all? Maybe a gain is too high low. FEIW my unit has 3 auto modes - Off, Cruising and Fishing. I cannot run in Fishing mode fast or I lose the bottom.

And can that unit take advantage of the 1K element? I oh a tilted one in last year and Furuno told me NOT to the the 1K driver for my Furuno model.

 

[Billy V]

... the yard didn't think this would be a problem.

I want to correct the situation which will require another haul out, and more costly work - but I want a successful outcome.

I personally think it should be their problem, unless you told them precisely where to put it.

But, have you contacted Furuno at all? Maybe a gain is too high low. FEIW my unit has 3 auto modes - Off, Cruising and Fishing. I cannot run in Fishing mode fast or I lose the bottom.

And can that unit take advantage of the 1K element? I oh a tilted one in last year and Furuno told me NOT to the the 1K driver for my Furuno model.

The yard is being a dick about it. The Marine Engineer was touting his vast experience in the marine industry, but had a yard worker with little to No experience do the actual install.
-I had to make them adjust the transducer to the correct - Towards Keel Orientation.
----------------------------
The Furuno 587 is a Great FF. I have used the 585 and 587 for several years on various boats, so I am familiar with it. It is set to 1 Kw power setting.

One of the first things I tried was adjusting the Auto Gain/Cruising and Manual settings on the unit. (I was hoping this would solve the issue) I tried them all, still no success. Even set on dedicated 200 Hrz and low Manual Gain - 3-4.
Still the unit would loose the bottom in 80-100 ft of water at speeds above 12 mph.
(It works Great at Drift) and will mark rock fish at 500 ft. with no problem.

I really would like to see the mounting location of anyone who has done a successful 1kw. flush mount on a 21 deg Deep Vee.
-before I tear into the hull again.

 

[Megabyte]

I really would like to see the mounting location of anyone who has done a successful 1kw. flush mount on a 21 deg Deep Vee.

OK... no one has weighed in yet with a 1kw 'ducer in a 21 degree hull, so perhaps this will help a little until someone shows up.

It's tough to see exactly where yours is mounted in relation to the keel by your photos.
If you are loosing bottom, I believe you are correct that bubbles off the hull are the issue.
The ONLY time mine looses bottom is when I'm backing up... due to bubbles off the prop.
Even when running at WOT I will get some 'snow' on the screen, but I never, ever, loose bottom going forward.

My Airmar transducer is a 500kw unit hooked to a Furuno FCV600L and my hull is an older 14 degree 2520 MVSC.
So NOT the same as yours, but look at the position of my transducer.

When you look at the photo, understand that the bottom of the keel is directly behind the bilge pump in the rear.
The garboard drain (not visible) is behind that bilge pump. That is the lowest part of the hull.
Note the pad glassed into the hull for the bilge pumps, then note where the transducer is located.
It is as close to the keel as I could get it, with nothing forward to aerate the water to produce bubbles.

Not an apples to apples comparison, but the concept is the same for any hull.
Mount it where aeration won't occur, and you should be good.

That "marine engineer" doesn't know what he is talking about. Apparently, he doesn't fish.

 

[Megabyte]

Went back and looked at your photos again.
It appears that your transducer, and the clamshell for your wash down are fairly close to each other.

Here is another shot of my bilge.
Notice that the valve (and the clamshell) for my wash down are on the opposite side of the keel, keeping it well away from the transducer.

Maybe?

 

[Billy V]

Do you have any pics of the underside of your hull where the transducer is mounted ?
-I think you have a modified Vee, so you may not have that chine forward of the transducer mounting location. Also, from the looks of your mounting location your transducer would be much lower down the dead rise toward the keel in cleaner water.

What speed will your transducer read at ?
----------------------------
I have water pickups on both side of the keel, one is for a live bait tank and the other is for the wash down. I called the Airmar to ask their help. They said the water pickup would be ok because it is slightly behind the transducer location, but they were definitely concerned about the chine that was 3 ft. in front of the transducers location.

I may have to buy another transducer with a Zero Deg. element and mount it on the flat spot of the keel in order to get a clean reading.
-I totally agree that the so called "Marine Engineer" is dead wrong about his choice of mounting location. Unfortunately they are sticking it to me bad.

 

[Megabyte]

Do you have any pics of the underside of your hull where the transducer is mounted ?

I just looked through my library. No shots of the underside of the hull.
But I might be able to get one on Saturday. I need to visit the boat then, so if the weather cooperates, I'll get a shot.

What speed will your transducer read at ?

The FCV600L is out of frame in this shot, but here I was running at WOT and never lost bottom.

 

[Billy V]

Thanks for you help.

We will get this sorted out with a little help from our Classic Parker friends, so anyone who does an install in the future has a better experience. It will probably require me to buy another transducer, and do another install.

I just spoke to Brian at BOE, and he was gracious enough to contact Parker on my behalf to ask some advice. They are suggesting the Flat Spot of the Actual Keel on my hull for the best possible picture and cleanest water flow.

Here is pic of a sister ship owner by a friend. Note the SS264 mounted on the flat spot of the keel. He says this location works well.

---------------------------
These pics are of My Boat. The flat spot of the keel is resting on the wood block.

 

[DaleH]

Looking at it again, water not only exits backwards, but some part of it also exits up the hull, so where the xducer is directly astride the water pickup, I wonder if that is a source of aeration too. You can see for yourself how the water off the hull exits the hull by observing the splash to the sides of the boat and the V that forms as you move forward.

I hate to say it, but wow ... they should have put it off that flat spot, where the block is resting, that is mounted way out and up the deadrise.

 

[Bryan 2530]

I have the same t ducer on a DV and never lose bottom. You hit the nail on the head with the problem. The install should be closer to the keel.

Weird that your clamshell pickup is on stbd. Most Parker's have that on port allowing the ducer to be mounted a little further down. Mine is where your clamshell is and works great at all speeds.

 

[warthog5]

I've installed a bunch of them.

I would never have installed it there.

It would be deeper. Closer to the Keel. They say it doesn't matter with a tilted element X-sucer as to which side you put it on, but I'm old school and keep putting them on the Stbd side.....I would have removed the water pickup and installed the X-ducer there....Then installed the water picup on the Port side.


And WTF ever made the guy think a strake 3ft in front of a X-ducer would not effect it......shows his dumb ass inexperience.

 

[TWOBOATER]

Maybe you can switch the clam shell and the x-ducer to save fiberglass work and another hole in the boat. You may have to go up a size for the intake to match the transducer dia. but you can reduce it on the inside for your hoses. To enlarge the intake hole for the transducer you can "nest" the smaller dia. hole saw inside the one for the transducer to keep it centered. Good Luck.

 

[WAJSKI]

I have a 2320 with thruhull mounted were Mega has his bilge pumps about 1' in. I used high speed faring that came with ducer never loose speed won't ever use a tm transducer for speed again. I got my location from Parker designer can't remember his name but was very good advice.Eric was his name I posted pics re 2320 thru hall transducer install

 

[warthog5]

Maybe you can switch the clam shell and the x-ducer to save fiberglass work and another hole in the boat. You may have to go up a size for the intake to match the transducer dia. but you can reduce it on the inside for your hoses. To enlarge the intake hole for the transducer you can "nest" the smaller dia. hole saw inside the one for the transducer to keep it centered. Good Luck.

Scoop intake = 1 1/2in hole

B-164 X-ducer = 3 3/4in hole.

After rereading a seeing you have a flat on the keel....You needed a 0deg B-164.

But If I had a flat like that to install a unit..... It would have been at least a B-260 and flush mounted on the flat. It's a LOT better X-ducer.

3 elements vs. 7 elements.... Same price for the X-ducer.....More money for the install.

Now your left with 1 option....... Remove and repair the hole.

In the pix you will see a custom box for it that I built

http://www.classicmako.com/projects/xshark/bw27.htm

 

[Megabyte]

Photo for Lukeman61

 

[Billy V]

I've installed a bunch of them.

I would never have installed it there.

It would be deeper. Closer to the Keel. They say it doesn't matter with a tilted element X-sucer as to which side you put it on, but I'm old school and keep putting them on the Stbd side.....I would have removed the water pickup and installed the X-ducer there....Then installed the water picup on the Port side.


And WTF ever made the guy think a strake 3ft in front of a X-ducer would not effect it......shows his dumb ass inexperience.

Heres an update.
Yesterday I spoke with Eric Denton at Parker. I told him about the problem I was having with the transducer in its present location.
-I asked him where to mount a flush mount TD on my hull (2310 DV). He said the factory mounts them 6 - 8" off the keel with the tilted element.

I also asked him about mounting a Zero degree element directly on the flat spot, in front of the bilge pump. He said that area is not flat and smooth inside the hull like the dead rise area. I would have to grind the area flat to get a good seal - but it could be done.

-These are some Pic Inside my Bilge - There are a Few Options. Its going to cost money either way - so what would You do ?
OPTIONS are BELOW THE PICS.
From Port side - looking Starboard

Directly in Front of Bilge Pump - looking Down on the Flat Spot.

Starboard Side of deadrise with TD and Bait Pump

Port Side of deadrise - original location of Parker wash down pick up. Proposed location for New Transducer

Option 1. Install a New SS264W 200hrz. 20 deg. in the original Parker wash down pick up hole on the Port Side. This would get the transducer much lower toward the keel, and nothing else would be in the area to disturb the TD. I have the motor mounted on a 30" bracket, so its way back form the TD location. Eric Denton said the RH twist of the prop should not affect the transducer.
Leave the current B164 in Place and connect it to my In Dash NavNet Vx2 - and connect the New SS264W 200Hrz. to the Furuno 587 unit.
This choice gives a wide range of fishing options. The B164 works good while drift fishing and trolling speeds. 6 deg narrow 200hrz - 22 deg 50 Hrz. Also Deep water rock fishing.
The SS264 200 25 deg is very good at spotting bait and predator fish in a wide area

Option 2. install a New Zero Transducer on the flat spot of the keel, in front of the bilge pump. I have checked this area and the fiberglass does have a roll to it, its like a mound. It would need some grinding to seat it flat. It would also be directly in front of water passing through the bilge area, and probably sitting in an inch or two of water any given time.


Option 3. Remove the B164 I have now, then glass over and repair the 3 3/4". Then install it in the original Parker wash down pick up hole on the Port side. Even though its bedded with 4200, its still $90 an hour to deal with the TD removal - then the cost of glass work and re-install.

Option 4. Swap positions of the current B164 and Bait Tank water pick up on the starboard side. This would require glassing over the 3 3/4" hole then re-drilling it for the 3'/4" water pick up. Then enlarging the water pick up hole to 3 3/4" for the TD

 

[warthog5]

O' Boy......Decisions.....Decisions.

#1 - That's out because you would get interference via running both units at the same time....and your just clogging your dashboard up.

#2 - That's a possibility.... but as I said....I'd move to a higher end X-ducer.

#3 - You could do that...Not the way I would...Cause I'm just anal.

#4 - Rather do it this way than #3 and the way it should have been done in the 1st place.


A person with a saw and little knowledge and the lack of ability in seeing 3 steps in front of whats next is a dangerous thing around a boat.

I'm sorry someone with little knowledge screwed up your boat.

It reminds me of years ago with Kevin's boat.

For years.... X-ducers came with a arrow on them. The arrow was pointed FORWARD. Then the Tilted Element X-ducers came along.

It has a arrow on it with capital letters "KEEL". Yes the arrow points at the KEEL. They installed Kev's with arrow FORWARD.

Failure to follow instructions leads to dismal results.

 

[warthog5]

Billy....Here are some pix's I have of a B-260 and fairing block.

Here is the Female Box I built. Had a guy from Gemco....that's the sub company of Airmar told me I could sell these.

This boat has a 8deg deadrise....It would be even easier on the flat you have. You will note........I installed it with a very slight angle pointing ahead. Understand this whole thing was a experiment.....Many many years ago......My thinking was cleaner water across the face of the X-ducer, but I don't believe it was necessary.....The boat would run 46MPH and it paint a perfect pix on a Furuno 582. It had twins on it and in reverse it still showed well......Until you blipped the throttle.

More glass was added over the box after it was glued in as you see it here.

More glass was added to the outside to feather the box into the hull...The glass went on and while it was still green I wiped it in with fairing compound....This saved a sanding step between glass and fairing.