Webasto FCF AC Vent Parts

[shawnee83]

Cleaning up my garage today and I have these left over vent parts from my AC instal that I thought I would offer to my CP folks. All I'm asking is that you pay for any shipping. I'm also hoping that you take all of them or none as I don't want to make multiple trips to ship them unless there happens to be 2 of you guys that want/need certain items that don't conflict. If you look at the Webasto FCF site you can see these parts as listed with their complete AC kits if you want additional details and descriptions. Let me know if you are interested.
1. Return Air Grill
2. Rectangular supply air vent.
3. Black transition box for this vent to connect vent hose.
4. White round supply air vent

 

[shawnee83]

Bump - If you are considering AC this could save you some $'s. Syndgoose, didn't you mention putting a system in that beautiful new big girl you have?

 

[Jersey Jim]

Bump - If you are considering AC this could save you some $'s.......

Funny you should post this. I've been looking at the FCF 6k btu unit the past couple of nights. Just got back from the boat, and took measurements of a perfect place for it, under the 3-person wide bench seat. The footprint of the FCF plastic base is only 11x16 inches (11 high), according to their spec sheet. The opening under the bench cushion is 11 exactly (couple inches wider once past the plastic border at top), and 30 something wide, 14-1/2 high inside. Just have to figure out how to get a single seawater hose below water line at the stern for a 120-volt pump. Seawater discharge above water-line is very easy, with 14-inches of space behind that port bench seat enclosure.

Would like to know the feasibility of using the existing bronze strainer/seacock, shared with the other 2 pumps. Anyway, getting ahead of myself. Will definitely be needing ducts. Can I bounce some pics off you and tell me what you think of it dropping into that 11-inch opening? Still have to get them off my phone & resize them.

Jim

 

[shawnee83]

Jim, I considered putting the unit in the port side bench seat but decided against it for a few reasons. 1. Running the supply line at a steady uphill or flat angle to the unit. Might be possible to do if you run it over the top of the fuel tank then cut a hole in on the cabin side? Didn't like that option much. 2. AC panel location in relation to the unit. This was not a huge deal as making long runs with AC Triplex is not a big problem. 3. Weight distribution, typically have more passenger load on port side. Just some things to think about. You mentioned the FCF 6K unit, I'm assuming you meant the 5K? Anyway, check out the 2 links below for the 2 project threads. One is from Ttucker512 who had your newer style 2120 and dash and is where I got the idea of putting it there from, the other one is from my instal. The good thing about your newer dash is that you have the clearance for the unit without having to rig the extension system for height that I had to do. It's a much easier install for you with the new dash. Lastly, the multiple feeds on a single thru hull intake, caused me some head scratching as well. In my research, I came across a set up from one of the big 34's Parker built as well as other large boats and discovered there is an item called a sea chest, see pic from the Parker. I don't think you really need one unless you were going to run multiple pumps at the same time. As for mine, I only have a raw water wash down. For now, I have disconnected that and I'm just running the AC. A bucket I keep on the deck works just fine :lol: Like most of our boats, my pump is located in the port jump seat. It's the style with the filter built in with the pump. Now that I have a nice raw water strainer for the AC, my thought was to just put a T-connector in the line after the strainer and add another pump for the wash down in the bilge and below the water line. As long as you don't run both at the same time I think it should work? I was going to float that idea to the forum before I did it. If you ever do this project, reach out to me as I have a lot of time into thinking about all of the options etc...
viewtopic.php?t=16478
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15763

 

[Jersey Jim]

Shawnee, looks like I came to the rights place for ideas. Yes I've been considering all the constraints & scratching my head. Like the inclined run of supply water so far from my only bilge access in the stern splashwell, mounting the seawater pump BELOW the water line, cold-air output recommended higher than intake return. AC supply I'm not concerned about because I don't have an AC panel. At less than 5 amps for the Sebasto 5k unit, I'll run it off a plug-in male connector when using, like an ordinary appliance.

The 2120 is so tight, how does one fish a "concealed" hose aft to a pump? Is there a resource somewhere that shows the stringer/channel framework below deck in a newer 2120? Discharging above water is a no-brainer pretty much anywhere.

Although I hate to run a temporary above-deck hose, but if ultimately my hands are tied & in a pinch, I could run a disconnectable & flexible hose (like Tygon) to a fitting installed on my bait-well. This would utilize the boat's already installed seacock with pump, and provide a source of water with the benefit of some head pressure due to the bait-well water level height. So no matter where the condenser is mounted, gravity should flow water to it and through it, probably without needing the 120-volt pump, and still exceed the specs 1 gallon per minute minimum flow. Also if a hose ever came off, the seawater supply line is "above deck and would just run out the scuppers. In my opinion, the water pump with supply line is the trickiest portion of the install, considering the 2120's limited bilge access. This would remedy most of it. I need to know what you think of this.

BTW, I can't click your links. Do I just "paste" them somewhere? Also, That tin enclosure to the left of the galvanized manifold in the pic does not look like the Sebasto unit, but a Dometic or other brand I saw recently. Is that the 34 foot example you were referring to?

 

[shawnee83]

Jim, I think I fixed the links so try them again now. One of the reasons that I put the unit where I did was for both the running of the supply line and also for the running of the pan drain line which we have not mentioned. If you mount the unit in the bench seat, do you have enough height to raise the unit up even an inch or more so that your gravity pan drain line can go out of a thru hull next to the unit? Mounting the unit at my dash allowed me to have a continuous uphill/level run just attaching the supply hose with zip ties to the existing rigging run to the helm. Your power supply line idea sounds good though. You could use a receiver type plug (like the kind used for a battery charger) mounted by the rod holder starboard under the gunnel sort of like my 30A is. That's the easy part. Yes, that pic was just to show you a sea Z Chest/manifold. Pic is from a 34 Parker. I have a pic of the stringer system but I'll just tell you that I don't see anyway that you will be able to run the supply line to that side without running it over the top of the tank then cutting into the area by the step down into the cabin or perhaps you could remove the bench seat for working on purposes and be able to get back in the area wher the fuel fill and vent lines are and bring the water supply line up in that area? Lots to consider. See pic of my bilge area. I never posted this on my project as I just had finished and not had a chance to pretty up my wiring and clean my bilge. Was not wanting to show my dirty bilge, lol. :lol: . Check out the links and I think it will add a lot of clarity. One more thing. 5.4A is average running amps but about 22A surge is at start up. Either way, your power supply idea will work.

 

[Jersey Jim]

Thanks Shawnee. Cant wait to follow the links. I think the newly released line of Sebasto FCF draws 4.6 amps. I compared the 2 series a few nights ago. Below are some pics of the area I was considering. One concern is, although the condenser is water cooled, the heat from the compressor will be inside the bench compartment, although a return will be cut into it. The Mfgr recommends approx. 50 square inches of return (7x7").

Is that a 2120 bilge you're showing? Mine has nowhere near that spacious bilge access, like my 1801 had. No square deck hatches, but only 2 small, round pie plates in the cockpit over the gas tank, and 2 in the very tight splashwell, accessing the bilge pump & switch. If I were to add a pump below the waterline, I think I have to cut a new hatch. Of course I would need to know how the stringers are laid out.

Sorry if my thoughts are wandering, but grand daughter is spending the day & I can't hear myself think, or finish a thought

 

[shawnee83]

I did see the new platinum series 6K you mentioned. It's showing that they are still making the regular FCF 5K as well. Specs get mushy on these when you drill down on the power usage. Sometimes they list the power draw as average and sometimes low and high along with start up on compressor. The only reason that I spent so much time paying attention to that part is because I planned to instal an inverter at some point so I could get 2 or 3 hrs of AC time on the way in or out. A little over the top but I thought it would be cool an I like to tinker with stuff like that. Not had time to exactly compare deinsions between the 2 models but it's nice that you have 2 to consider.

 

[Jersey Jim]

.............. The only reason that I spent so much time paying attention to that part is because I planned to instal an inverter at some point so I could get 2 or 3 hrs of AC time on the way in or out. A little over the top but I thought it would be cool an I like to tinker with stuff like that....

The tinkering is the fun part, except for me, not the below deck part with no access. Did you mention a source of information for the late model stringer layout? Without that info I cant even start.

Well I'm hearing that many will run the 5k btus on Honda's tiny 1kw portable generator. Probably route I will go at first, when not on shore power. There are even soft-start circuits for these AC units for starting surge issues. I used one for years on my well motor at home for making it easier on generator during power outages.

Years ago I put a 3kw inverter with 400Ah bank (2 6v Trojans), in my motor home. I would run the rooftop AC unit on the inverter, only at night when couldnt run generator. It could surge to an amazing 10kw! The inverter's built-in 3-stage charger made it much faster to recharge the bank when on generator or AC. Still at more than double the draw of this marine unit, I used a 2-knob repeat-cycle timer, & tstat set all the way down on 50F, to force AC on at a fixed duty-cycle at night. I recall running it 3 minutes on, 17 off, 3 times an hour. It got very cold/dry for cooling 31 feet on batteries during summer. I had a LOT of tinkering & projects during that time. It brings back good memories. And is why I'm looking fwd to this project.

 

[Jersey Jim]

......Shawnee, I see now that Dometic makes a compact 6k Btu unit also (Emerald series) with dimensions only 11.1x11.1" but they seemed to have left out the height. Looks about the same in height though. I don't know how, but they got their FLA down to 3.8 amps from the FCF's 4.5! Might have something to do with the 410A Freon they boast about. I have a hunch they use whatever is mandated. Usually "green" comes at the expense of performance though. As long as one of the dimensions is around 11, I can drop it into the bench seat area, as it opens up wider than 11 once clearing the top plastic flange. I have more weight on the starboard side, but she sits level at dock once I lean the OB to the opposite side. There "is" a lot of space behind the helm, but I worry about the noise when sleeping aboard, especially being open behind there.

If you happen to come across any innovative & compact models, please shoot me a link. I won't be starting this project until getting the boat home after December 1st.

Thanks, Jim

 

[shawnee83]

The Dometec units were the main other unit that I considered due to its size and I did like the compressor cover. While reading many online reviews I became less enchanted with it. But, at the end of the day my mounting location with consideration of the orientation of the blower, the inlet & outlet lines and the demensions of the unit itself directed me towards the FCF. As to the weight distribution, like most 2120's mine also tends to lean starboard and my AC instal under the dash has not helped that (50ish lbs). My long range plan of adding a battery charger(port side of bilge bulkhead), inverter (port jump seat) and a larger port side(house battery) to run the inverter from, I figured would level things out? It appears to me that your knowledge of electrical is very good and way beyond mine. While doing my AC shore power and Marine AC install I don't think there was much interest in it or in my questions on electrical advise. This project pushed my comfort level as doing 30A AC or AC power wiring in general was a first. I did a lot of reading along with some calls to the Tech desk at Blue Sea Sys etc and figured it out. I'm more comfortable with 12v but even then, compared with others here on CP I have much still to learn. Hopefully you will be able to provide me with some good advise going forward as I get back to my next steps which I think is going to be a hard wired battery charger and an AC plug outlet for the cabin. Hoping to get to Beaufort for one more weekend fishing trip this year and then bring my boat back to Winston Salem for a few months to do some projects. I hate bringing it to WS but I have found that trying to do multiple projects from 4+ hrs away on weekends is a pain. I have a long list currently. FYI - see attached pic of the stringer layout on a 2320 that I saw while doing a plant tour a few years ago. The tank and cabin section layout is the same as the 2120. Those 2 compartments on either side of the tank are foam filled. As I mentioned before, I think your best best to run a supply line under deck to the bench seat is going to be over the top of the tank. Then you can come up where your fill and vent hose come out? If you run it under the gunnel the only issue may just be getting the water out during winter? Perhaps just blowing it out with a compressor will handle it?

 

[Jersey Jim]

Shawnee, thanks for posting the stringer layout. I still don't know entirely what I'm looking at. It would help if I knew where the pilot house boundary was (aft), and where hoses surfaced through the deck on both ends. Is there usually enough room to fish another hose in a channel that already contains a couple? I assume the fuel tank occupies the large narrow fore-to-aft rectangular compartment. Is it safe to assume the fuel tank is entirely under the cockpit?

I went down to the boat today and realized that there is ample space in one of the two starboard storage sections, particularly the aft one. I like the idea of it not being enclosed and just "dropping it in". Did you say previously that it would be easier to route seawater uphill on that side? My only seawater valve is under one of the two round plate covers in the Port side (near center), inside the splash well. I'm not keen on disturbing clean water to the transducer by adding a thru-hull strainer on the starboard side, and like you I hate to add more weight on the already heavy starboard side. I may or may not add batteries/inverter later. For now a compact Honda will suffice for the first season to determine if too inconvenient. Initially, I primarily intend to use the AC mostly while in the slip, but that could quickly change once getting spoiled with the convenience, or who goes along.

I will be glad to help out wherever I can with whatever "pieces of the puzzle" I may be able to help with. The main thing to remember about inverters, is that to boost voltage 10 times higher (from 12 to 120), the AC appliance's running current is also ten times higher from the battery source. So a 5 amp AC appliance will draw no less than 50 amps from the battery. I say "no less than" because nothing is 100% efficient. Therefore that 10:1 amperage ratio that corresponds to the 10:1 voltage ratio, actually comes at the expense of a little more than 50 amps from the battery. The good news is, your outboard alternator may keep up with most of this 12-volt amperage, and the batteries will supplement the difference, running your AC considerably longer than you think.

Like I mentioned before, pulling a hose through unknown & populated stringer configurations is outside of my comfort zone at this point in my learning curve. That's what I love about this forum though, I feel confident you knowledgeable people will get me through it.

 

[shawnee83]

Jim, a couple of things. Yes the large rectangular compartment is all fuel tank. The bulkhead in the front of the tank is exactly where you step down into the cabin. Just before that bulkhead on the port side is where the fill & vent hoses come up to the deck in that area where the rod tip holes/storage enter the cabin under the gunnels. I'm sure you can see them when looking aft behind your bench seat? You can on mine anyway. If you open up one of the pie plates on the deck you should be able to see the tank and also see how the deck sits several inches above it. This is why I feel you can run the hose from the bilge area across the top off the tank. My issue is that I have the old transum set up with the large hatch and yours is obviously different. I think under you live well etc.. it's still the same though. If you were able to get to it you would be able to cut a hole in the bilge side of that tank bulkhead for a water line. I didn't realize that there were only pie plat access to the bilge on the new 2120's. If you can zoom the top pic, you can make out the lower stringers in the cabin vs the stepped up stringers on both sides and where the birth is. One is where the bench seat is and the other is where the starboard storage is. You don't need to add another thru hull scupper valve but you would need to add a sea water strainer and a T-valve for your raw water wash down. Now I understand why Ttuck512 said that he was running his AC unit off of his raw water wash down pump. He couldn't or didn't want to deal with adding a T-valve a strainer and additional pump due to the limited bilge access? If your wash down pump is like mine then it has the built in filter already due to the original line coming off if the thru hull scupper valve not having a dedicated strainer. Now that I have a strainer, if I ever hook my raw water wash down up again, I will just use a T-valve after the strainer and add a regular pump without the built in filter, mount it in the bilge, then run the hose to the existing hose outlet on the side of my port jump seat. Lots of stuff to think about doing this AC project :roll:

 

[rwp48]

MarineAir is a Dometic company. I put a 16K BTU unit on my trawler several years ago. It failed within 10 days...freon leak.

BUT, this is a story of customer satisfaction. We were in the Chesapeake, it was summer (100+ degrees) and it was Friday afternoon. Katie, the technician working on our boat, id'd the leak and called MarineAir. Because the unit was so new they wanted it back to inspect and evaluate the failure. They authorized her to recharge the unit so we would have A/C over the weekend and sent a replacement by expedited shipping. Tuesday morning Katie was back aboard removing the defective unit and installing its replacement. We were without A/C for no more than an hour.

Any company will have a problem with a product. The measure of a company is how they handle these problems. Going forward I will only buy MarineAir.

 

[Jersey Jim]

....... Going forward I will only buy MarineAir.

Good to know. How a company stands behind a product is very important. In my case, dimensions/footprint of the unit may dictate a lot too. One of the many variables that need to be juggled. Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[Jersey Jim]

Shawnee, I don't seem to have the rod-tip holders cut into the starboard partition, under the gunwale, sealing off that small area between cabin from cockpit. I do however, have a large notch cut out at the top, probably for the same purpose though. I only use it for feeding the shore-power cord through. I can see now, how I'll be drilling that for the AC cooling water hose, and a flanged-inlet for connecting a power cord.

Well I'm back on the port side now for the Webasco 6k install. I'd rather have the weight on that side anyway. I went down to the boat today to really study things, and to lower my camera/phone into the splashwell's 2 round covers (pic "pump 1"). I'ts bad enough that it's only a round hole to work in, but I have to lay on my stomach and reach/tilt way down. Good news is, it's going to be easier than I thought.

Luckily the livewell pump has 2 hoses coming off of it, above the seacock valve (pics "pump 2 & 6"). One is pressurized for baitwell fill (black hose in pic 2), and the other is the non-pressurized hose for the "suction-side" of the washdown pump's inlet strainer, and a straight shot to the ocean once through the valve (pics 3/8). The AC cooling water pump is best placed below the water line, but I think I can get away with mounting it in the port battery compartment under the jump seat. The battery tray/shelf is only 3 inches above the water line. The beauty is, I only need to cut the hose to the washdown inlet strainer in this area, and Tee off with a fitting to the AC cooling pump mounted on the battery shelf. Priming that line will not be a problem because the washdown pump self-primes past this Tee on it's way to it's strainer. Once primed, I don't think the condenser cooling pump will lose prime. And if the new pump needs to be mounted in the bilge, there is plenty of room for it. The entire battery shelf (port) has a 1 to 2 inch gap, the entire length of the bilge to drop hoses or wires down into the bilge (pic "pump 11"), not to mention the channel that passes the bilge-pump hose and washdown inlet, into the battery compartment (pic "pump 10").

I can pass the new cooling water hose from the cabin into the battery box, along with the self-bailing deck water, as shown with a wire in pic "pump 14", or can install another bulkhead hose fitting similar to the washdown fitting. There is only 48" of exposed hose to get into the cabin, of which most of it is concealed behind my speargun rack (pics 13 & 14). Since I can choose how high to drill the partition under the gunwale, I can choose the incline. The hose can also be concealed under the gunwale too. Once inside, bingo, I'm directly in the 14-inch wide space behind the wide bench seat. This ample space makes the discharge water fittings the easiest part of the install.

What really helped, was to put my phone on "video record" with flash continually lit, and to slowly rotate it around inside the bilge. It really revealed every nook, cranny and channel that I had no idea was there.

BTW, the hard to see white hose at the top of pic 3, is the termination of the baitwell's overflow hose, at the transom's scupper just at/below the waterline.

 

[Jersey Jim]

6 more....

 

[Jersey Jim]

2 more...

 

[shawnee83]

I didn't realize that they eliminated the rod holders under the gunwales. I think when they brought those jump seats forward etc with the new transum, they lost the length to put them in. Mine doesn't have as much of a notch on top op that filler piece as it just doesn't go all the way to the top but stops short by about 1.5". Not sure if they do that for ventilation or just for being able to run rigging. After my instal I used low density foam and sealed them up. If you don't, your AC/heat will struggle as the blower will draw air in past those large holes. Anyway, after seeing your pics and knowing that you want to go port side, I think if you T off that raw water wash down supply hose up in the port seat, then add a strainer & self priming pump, you can make it work? I can't see in you port jump seat surface pic if you have a rigging flange in that port corner? Mine has one there, I don't know why as there isn't any rigging running up throgh it from the port jump seat. Again, it might be for ventilation? Anyway, if you have one there, I would run the line up through that and attach it under the gunwal to the cabin. You would only have minimal cutting on the top of that filler piece and on something you can't see too. The uphill run of the hose I think is more about being able to drain the system. A compressor and pulling some lines could accomplish that when time to winterize? My rigging flange on the starboad side was to full of existing rigging to pass the 3/4 AC supply hose so I had to make several cuts to get it down to the bilge. In the process I discovered a neat tool that attaches to you drill that allows a 90 degree angle cut. That came in handy when I had to cut a hole just in front of the existing starboard side rigging flange, inside the deck of the jump seat and again in the side of the bilge bulkhead. I threaded a 4' flange hose through all three new flanges and created a conduit down to the bilge for AC Triplex and the 3/4 supply hose. I like how it worked out. Wish I had some pics. Next time I go down to my boat I'll take some. It will be a few weeks as I'm flying to PHL this weekend to visit some old friends. In the meantime, if you zoom this one in and look down that port side jump seat you can just make out that black rigging flange with my water line and power going into the jump seat. Also, added a pic of what the supply line looks like. Nice to see somebody else wanting to pull this off

 

[Jersey Jim]

..... Mine doesn't have as much of a notch on top op that filler piece as it just doesn't go all the way to the top but stops short by about 1.5". .........................I can't see in you port jump seat surface pic if you have a rigging flange in that port corner? Mine has one there......

Yeah mine stops too about the same. I can get my hand across the top of that filler piece, and it also has a good sized notch at the top of it, probably to cradle rods.

I was thinking as I posted these pics, that I had the jump seat lid lifted too far to see my port rigging flange, but yes there's one there. It's not cut down short, but tall black plastic leading up into the gunwale so may not have anything passing through it. I barely got the 12-pin transducer connector through the crowded starboard one.

You don't know how relieved I was to learn that I didn't have to re-work the plumbing down in that ridiculously tight bilge, and that seawater conveniently passed right up into the spacious battery compartment. Even if I have to put a pump down below, I'll just cut the washdown strainer hose midway, and feed it back down into the bilge where I'll Tee it to both pumps. The washdown has good priming suction, but I'm not sure about the pump you used. Do you have a link to it? I have a hunch that the baitwell pump does not lend itself well to self priming, and is probably why it's mounted below the water line. Like I mentioned before, adding a Tee in the washdown pump area in order to supply the cooling pump, is guaranteed to pull water up to that Tee, on it's way to the washdown. I really think it will work. Time will tell.